Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: A few days on the front end, a few days on the back end. That is a really good time. You find a good scrape, you give.
[00:00:05] Speaker B: Away all your secrets.
[00:00:08] Speaker A: I'm pretty transparent.
[00:00:10] Speaker B: We all went to high school with that guy that could go out, and, you know, he'd just stand there and all the girls would flock to him.
[00:00:16] Speaker A: And what's crazy is everybody has different effects. After limelight.
[00:00:26] Speaker B: For Pennsylvania hunters and conservationists, our roots run deep. The episodes we bring to you on the Pennsylvania Game Commission's podcast, Call of the Outdoors, will take a deep dive into exposing the incredible work being done by agency staff and partners, including statewide habitat projects, the science behind wildlife management, and what drives agency decisions. The Pennsylvania Game Commission's mission is twofold, to manage and protect wildlife and their habitats for not only current, but future generations, and to promote hunting and trapping in the Keystone state.
Well, good morning, Bo. Thanks for joining us today here at tack. I mean, lots going on, and we surely appreciate you joining us here on the podcast.
[00:01:06] Speaker A: Yeah, no, thanks. It's beautiful weather. Nice, not too hot.
[00:01:10] Speaker B: It's crazy that, you know, we're winding turkey season down, and it's like long John weather at daylight. It was 39 degrees this morning. It's nuts. Somebody said they saw a buck rutting the dough, you know, earlier this morning. But, you know, that's what happens when you get to tack or, you know, like, really, this kicks off hunting season for a lot of people, and people are fired up.
[00:01:30] Speaker A: I know for me, it's always the. It's kind of the kick in the butt that I need to humble myself when I go shoot on the course and be like, okay, I got some.
[00:01:39] Speaker B: Things to work on.
[00:01:40] Speaker A: I got some things to work on.
[00:01:41] Speaker B: And we want to talk a lot about that. And, you know, first of all, like, you know, tell us a little bit about yourself and where you're from and what's going on for the folks out there that. From our agency that. That don't know. But, I mean, obviously, you've been really busy the last few years.
[00:01:52] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. So I'm from Pennsylvania. I've been a Pennsylvania native my entire life and. And grew up in northern Pennsylvania. So very, just big timber, big woods, not any ag. And that's just how I've learned to deer, turkey hunt, everything else. And my whole family is huge into hunting, and so I really didn't have a choice like that. That was the path, kind of I was going down, and. And I had started the east meets West hunt podcast about six years ago. Oh, yeah, six years ago at this event.
[00:02:24] Speaker B: Oh, no kidding.
[00:02:25] Speaker A: Yeah. It was the first podcast I recorded, and it was originally directed at me wanting to learn how to do better western hunting and the east meets west. And then I came to realize a little bit, and I started talking about hunting in Pennsylvania and hunting some of these big woods areas that I've grown up doing my whole life. I didn't think anybody was interested in that. And Pennsylvania, we have a lot of people that like to hunt and a lot of people that could relate to it, and that's been kind of the direction and the focus that it's been, and especially in the last few years and really going down that side of things, and you give away all your secrets.
I'm pretty transparent. But I also.
I do not like to give any specifics on locations, areas. Anytime I do any map tutorials, they are on areas that. That I am not. I am not hunting, and they are not public land. Try to protect places.
[00:03:27] Speaker B: When I was a kid, like the old timers, somebody had asked them about a turkey, and they'd send them the wild goat or, you know, wild goose chase, because there wasn't any turkeys where they sent them. But, yeah, but, you know, that, that. That's the cool thing about our state. When you really look at Pennsylvania as a whole, you know, we're lucky. We have, you know, darn close to 900,000 people that hunt every year. A lot of people don't realize that. You know, you go next door to Ohio, and Ohio has 350,000 hunters. You know, we're almost, you know, triple what they have. And, you know, when you get up in the country, you're talking about the amount of public land, and we're just so fortunate.
[00:04:01] Speaker A: Yeah. Over 2 million acres of public land in northern Pennsylvania. Like, that's. It's incredible. I didn't realize how lucky I was until, for a while, I moved by Pittsburgh, and then I was. And I was like, wait, you can't just go hunt wherever, like. Cause I was just so used to so much being open to the public that it was. It was weird to me. And then that really, I realized how lucky I was to be able to have that and grateful for it. And it's. Yeah, we're. We're really lucky to be able to.
[00:04:27] Speaker B: Have that in Pa. Now is your east, meet west? Is that. Is that your full time job? Yeah. Okay, awesome.
[00:04:33] Speaker A: Yeah, awesome.
[00:04:33] Speaker B: So you've. You developed that career into something that you can make a living at in the hunting industry. That's. That's really cool.
[00:04:39] Speaker A: Yeah, it's been two years now of doing it all on my own. When I say on my own, there's a lot of people that help me. It's just as far as working for myself, and it's. Yeah, it's been. It's been challenging but super fun at the same time. My background is in. I went to college for safety and environmental, and that's what I did in manufacturing for. For the first eight, nine years until I transitioned into this. But I always had to do a lot of educational stuff, and I love education, so that's been kind of my platform is. Is education side, side of things, not really entertainment, more of the education front. And I like doing that. And I'm relatively comfortable with talking in front of people, so that that helps.
[00:05:20] Speaker B: Yeah. You know, I kind of did it backwards, personally. Like you, I started in the outdoor industry. I'd worked there for 30 years, and then, you know, totally my own boss, and, you know, traveling the country, talking about turkey hunting, and, you know, when the turkey craze was new in a lot of places, and I started when I was 16, and then in my fifties, I said, man, I'm gonna, you know, settle down a little bit and come work with the state agency. And it's been awesome because, you know, without state agencies, without wildlife, there's no future. And 100%, you know, we're always trying to do the best in obviously, satisfying everybody always isn't possible, but we do the best possible job that we can. And the bottom line is we listen to everybody. Let's talk about tack real quick where we're at the total archery challenge, you know, when you look at it and when you look down this. This row and there's thousands of people down there shooting their bows, you know, how does this help hunters get ready for bow season?
[00:06:10] Speaker A: Well, so I started coming to tack. I think it was either the first or second year, maybe 2015, somewhere around there, and when there was, like, ten boosts, maybe eight that were here. I worked for an archery shop at the time, and we had a booth here, and. And I started shooting the event, and I was like, man, these. Some of these shots aren't realistic. They're super far. And, like, how is this relatable? But what that taught me was when you practice something that's harder than what you actually have in a hunting scenario, it makes it. It makes it so much easier when you have a 15 yard shot, when you're shooting at 60, 70, 80 yards, and when you. Because every little detail that you mess up your arrow is going to go a lot further away at longer distances. So these events help you work under pressure. You have your buddies that are there with you, you know, giving you crap. And it's, it's, it makes it, it, to me, it just really helps find those holes in your game. And then when you go back home, you start working on it. That's what I said at the beginning of when I come here. It's like, okay, all right. I need to, I need to make sure my third axis is on, because when I'm shooting downhill, I'm shooting to the left or, or whatever it is, and start doing that. And then, yeah, when it comes to those hunting scenarios, it makes it easier because you're used to shooting well.
[00:07:23] Speaker B: If you look at anything, you do play baseball and you want to hit 90 miles an hour fastballs, you can't practice at 60 miles an hour. You gotta, you gotta, you gotta bow up. And that's the same thing here, you know, and it's, it's really incredible. You see all age groups here, too, you know, and lots of female participants, and just everybody's out here having fun, and it's, you know, beginning in June. And, you know, what are some other ways that you think of that folks can do right now? I mean, we're three months from, from archery season here in Pennsylvania. Obviously, if you're going out west, it's a lot quicker.
[00:07:52] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:07:52] Speaker B: But, you know, think about these next couple months, and some of the things that you recommend to folks early season are getting ready.
[00:07:57] Speaker A: So when it, when it comes to the shooting side of it specifically for me, one thing that, that I'd made the mistake in the past is I would just go out, shoot at known ranges in my yard and just, you know, shoot and shoot and shoot. And, yeah, I'd get good at that. But a lot of times in hunting scenarios, you may range your trees ahead of time, especially if you're, you know, you're hunting out of a tree stand or you're hunting elevated and they come through, they're not always going to come on that specific trail or do something. So now I'll do a lot of times I'll just take three arrows and throw them in different spots in my yard and practice, you know, guessing ranges, confirming, practicing pin gap, and trying to have realistic scenarios. And then as I get later in the summer, I'll set up a stand in my yard and shoot out of that because shooting at an angle down is different at a deer than it is shooting flat. So it's trying to, to anticipate where your arrow is going to come out and making sure that you're able to put an ethical shot on. So practicing those types of things in those realistic scenarios I think is super important and often overlooked because it is fun to just, or you just becomes habit. You go out, you stand in the same spot, maybe, you know, 40 yards to your target and you shoot a dozen arrows into it. And that, that's, that's good. There's, there's a time and place for that. But, you know, getting through the summer and starting to practice some of those realistic scenarios has helped me a lot.
[00:09:20] Speaker B: I heard Randy Almer a long time ago talk about, and I kind of taken this on myself. You know, I've shoot a lot in the summer and then as we get closer to season, I'll take one arrow and, you know, known distance, 30 or whatever it is and shoot one arrow because that's the one that counts. And it's amazing when you do that, how it helps your concentration, helps you hold and get that release. Cause you know, as well as I do, every, when a deer comes by, like, it has to be second nature most of the time.
[00:09:45] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think that practicing at like what you just said there, shooting that one arrow, that, that Randy Almer said like that to me, shooting one good arrow is better than shooting 50. That is just, you're just going through the motions on things. There's something to be said for muscle memory, but also just making sure every shot is, is perfect from that standpoint of practicing perfect shooting every time. And I'd rather shoot three arrows, you know, before work in the morning than to just go out and knock out 50 and your arms tired and you have poor form and you're not executing properly. I think that's a really good point.
[00:10:23] Speaker B: So a good friend of mine, Denny Galvas, his son, I don't know if you know Corey Galveston at all.
[00:10:27] Speaker A: I've talked to him messaging back and forth, but I've never met him.
[00:10:31] Speaker B: I mean, Danny in the turkey world was like, I mean, he's still out there every day listening to turkeys. He's probably called some up this morning and he's vowed not to shoot a turkey since the eighties. So he just talks to him and I mean, but his, his sons have taken over. Like, you know, Corey is multi time world champion with traditional stuff. And he told me, you know, he shot that real, that giant a couple years ago in Tioga county. And he said he shoots an arrow, at least an arrow every day of his life. Like, it's part of his being, part of his spirit. You know, it could be 30 below zero, and he goes out there and tries to sink one in, you know, and that's. That's how you get good. I mean, yes, 100%.
[00:11:09] Speaker A: And doing. Doing the simple things well. And like you said in the consistency side, I went to a long range shooting course for, for rifles last year. Buddy of mine that's in the SEAL teams and stuff, they put this, they put this on, and I was, you know, going there expecting to, you know, learn these fancy things about shooting, and it was all just doing the simple things. They do it so much that it just becomes second nature. And that's right. The same thing with archery. It's. It's doing those simple things really well.
[00:11:38] Speaker B: And it's like anything we do in life, the more you do it, the better you get at it 100%. That's one thing about hunting that when you think about, you know, one of the mistakes I made, you know, I grew up like you. It wasn't forced, but I was either going to be a hunter or do something else. But, but, you know, I grew up in a hunting family, and, you know, it's something that you want to do and the more that you do it. And I've learned this, you know, the best deer hunters that I was ever in the woods with at one time in my life where my buddies from Alabama, and the reason is they can hunt from October till February, and they can hunt every day at that time. They could kill a buck and two does a day. So they were shooting stuff, you know, and they were good at it. And the reason is they could read sign. They could figure out what those deer were going to eat different times of year, no matter where they went because they knew. They knew what was going on. Plus, those deer down there, you know, our deer experience a lot of pressure and are skittish when he, when you look across the country, pa bucks are tough and, well, deer in general, Alabama deer, the skinniest deer. I mean, they're just like, they're on, they're on pins and needles every time, and it's just, it's crazy. And, you know, when you think about summer, too, you know, you're, you're probably already have started your scouting for next year. I'm sure every time you go in the woods, you're scouting. But some of the things what do you in, you know, next couple months, June, July, August, where people can do, you know, if they have some free time to get out there and check around some of the stuff that you might recommend.
[00:12:56] Speaker A: Yeah. And honestly, summertime is my least favorite to be out because it's hot, buggy, spider webs everywhere, snakes, all that stuff. But I think there is a lot of value in it. And I spend most of my time scouting in March, April, and then even through turkey hunting. I use that a lot for, for deer hunting. But as you start getting in the June, July, and August, for me, it's a lot of, there's two forms of scouting. It's the, the in the field stuff, but also stuff that you can do at home to be able to do so to. So, like, when I go out in the springtime and I'm scouting and I'm finding spots and sign from last year before that green up comes now in the summertime, I'm starting to put cameras out. I'm trying to, to figure out one. Did you know, did the deer that laid that sign down, did they make it through from last year? Am I getting out scouting, seeing what things are looking like as you start getting later into the summer, I'm going to start taking my binos out in August and looking to see if acorns are starting to come. The tree. How are the apples doing? Like some of those food sources that are going to start to roll around in early October. And so those are things that I'll do out in the woods. But, like, especially with, with trail cameras when in the summertime, they're not always in those places come fall. But what I've learned is they don't typically go as far as I used to think. It's just finding places that have shade, water, and, and they'll still use scrapes at that time. So I try to find scrapes that are located, you know, on north slopes that have some shade, maybe some conifer trees, some hemlock, things like that, and then also food. So in the form of the big woods is browse. So clear cuts, you know, BlackBerry briars that are coming up, some maple twigs, you know, something that's just, that's coming up, they're browsing on. And then, you know, spring seeps. Doesn't have to be a pond or a river, but just something that has some water, have all those things that they need there. Those are good places for intel for me. And then at home, I'm spending a lot of time looking at maps of waypoints that I dropped while I was out in the field in the spring and then kind of putting together a game plan to look at. Okay, so when the fall comes around, I'm not like, oh, what am I going to be doing? Kind of have a plan to, to work towards that.
[00:15:12] Speaker B: Yeah. And that's, that's one thing we forget is humans. We are predator and we're the only one that can reason and figure something out. And that's, to me, like, like, I'm sure you, that's, that's all part of the hunt. Yeah, that's, that's as. Cause it builds that anticipation and, you know, you're trying to use what we, you know, what we have in our brains and try to figure out a situation. And when it all comes down to it, I mean, it pays off in big dividends. When you talked about something, you know, a lot of folks don't realize this and I'm included. You know, I always thought I knew everything there was about oak trees, but there's so much when you think about oaks and, you know, some people don't realize you can go out and find acorns early and see, you know, when you look, do you look for certain oaks or.
[00:15:52] Speaker A: Yeah. So, and it depends on the areas, on what type of oaks will be there. But, you know, first and foremost, if I can find white oak trees, that's going to be the early season. You know, that's the filet mignon of the deer woods when that, when those are dropping. And then also red oaks, which seems like, you know, that's, if there's no white oaks, that's kind of seems to be primary, but, you know, having those there and then even, you know, chestnut oaks and, and some of those black Oaks and some of those other trees there, which may not be their first choice, but as you start getting later in the season, if they're the ones that are left on the ground, that's when they seem to be coming to scoop those up. So I'm looking at all those, those different things and trying to plan throughout the different seasons. So if you're hunting a spot, say hunting in October and you're not having any luck and it's like, oh, what do I do? Come, you know, November. Or maybe you went through November and you didn't fill a tag and you're coming into gun season and late season, like, what are you going to be doing at that point? It's like, okay, I already have an idea. You know, I remember I found chestnut Oaks in this area. Let me go check it. And then you go confirm with boots on the ground to be able to see. Okay, they're there, I can see they're digging their feeding and just trying to utilize some of those woodsmanship skills because there are. There is so much technology out there that it's great. It helps for when you have short amount of time, but that doesn't replace being able to understand the woods and being out there and looking at those things. And that's something I take a lot of note of and something I learned a lot from my dad that I've been lucky to have as a mentor in that.
[00:17:26] Speaker B: So when you talk about. And I learned this this year just from our foresters, you know, when a white oak drops, obviously they drop, you know, pretty early, you know, in October. And like, like you said, everything. Turkeys, deer, whatever.
[00:17:37] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:17:37] Speaker B: It's filet mignon. But that white oak, as soon as it drops, starts to develop that root system. Cause it's pushing a root down where red oak lays more dormant till the next year. That's why red oaks really generate every two years. But, you know, and once that root comes out so far, it's not as palatable to a whitetail.
[00:17:54] Speaker A: Yeah. What's it called? Germinating.
[00:17:55] Speaker B: I don't even know. That's way out of my. Probably.
[00:17:58] Speaker A: Yeah. Cause you can see it when it starts to come out the bottom of the.
[00:18:01] Speaker B: And it's pretty fast that that happens where red oak lays until it starts rooting for quite a while or germinating however you want to see it. I should get Gustafsson over here. He could give us a whole lesson on that stuff. But that's. That's exactly, you know, you're spending that time in the woods when you talk about late season, you know, that's a season that a lot of folks overlook. Yeah, because it's tough, but late season can be real good, especially if you have the intel or, you know, that food source. You know, do you do any of the late season stuff here at home?
[00:18:27] Speaker A: Well, actually, last year, because I had a buck tag late, I did. And I. And it was the first time that one I had the time and. And I had a tag in my pocket that I put a lot of effort into it. And I was really surprised at how much you can, like, you can have success doing that even in big timbered areas, by being able to get in there and find that you find those good food sources, but also they're a little bit, you know, they're. They're. They've been pressured for sure for most of the year, so they might stick to cover a little bit. But if you can find, say there's an oak flat on top and you got a side hill with some mountain laurel and stuff. Maybe you got to go a little bit closer to where they're probably betting at then directly sitting over the food. But you can. I mean, last year, my dad was. One thing that he was doing was like, he, when he was going out in late season, he was like, okay, where was I? Finding sheds early on in previous years? You know, those are areas that the deer want to, want to be at and was finding really nice bucks and in that late season timeframe, and there's not as many people out in the woods at that time.
[00:19:31] Speaker B: And you talk about that. I remember years ago, I, you know, got to hunt in the best places in the country. I spent a lot of time in Kansas with a good friend of mine, and, you know, they found a buck sheds like four or five consecutive years, both halves within a hundred yard circle of each other. Like, he spent his time when that happened in that same area every year. And I'm sure, you know, you use that. Use that, that intel to, you know, I dang sure would have a stand hung in there, you know, for late season because they're spending a lot of time in there. I mean. Absolutely. Let's talk about some other scouting tools. And you kind of hit on it, you know, your mapping apps and your trail cams, anything. You know, you probably put out more trail cameras than most people, I would imagine. How many cameras do you run, or is that a secret?
[00:20:13] Speaker A: No.
40.
[00:20:17] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:20:17] Speaker A: 40 to 50, probably.
[00:20:19] Speaker B: That's a full time job in itself.
[00:20:20] Speaker A: Yeah, it is. And it's. And they're. They're spread out quite a bit through. You know, there'll be some in areas I'm hunting, and there will be ones in what I call test areas where I'm just trying to see if there's a caliber of deer that I want to. That I want to go in and also seeing what pressure is looking like. So I'll have them and I just let them soak. I really don't use trail cameras much for intel of that season. I'm a very data driven person and see historical trends. So at the end of the year, pull MASD cards, put them on my computer, and I'll go through and I'll look at dates. You know, when was I getting daylight activity, correlate that to the weather. And I have these things mapped out because I tend to see historical trends of places that will. That will become good. So I use trail cameras a lot for that for next year and the year after, more so than like, I'm.
[00:21:14] Speaker B: Gonna be in the woods October 28 because, especially if it was a cold.
[00:21:17] Speaker A: Front, because if I say there was like, okay, two years in a row, I've had activity between October 26 and 28th here. Well, really, I'm gonna look at what the weather is, and sometime in that five to seven day window, I wanna be there. Right. And do that. And that's, that's been really helpful for me to be able to do that, especially, you know, right now with working for myself, I'm very lucky that I can spend more time in the woods. But when I didn't have that ability, that was super helpful. Like, okay, if I'm planning days off of work or anything like that to be able to get out, that was, yeah. Something I used.
[00:21:52] Speaker B: So from your data sets over the, you know, your pat, if you, if you were, if you had to pick, you know, four or five days of takeoff work in archery season, you know, and you, you obviously can't predict the weather. We're not in control of that. What would, what advice would you give to folks out there?
[00:22:08] Speaker A: I would say the boats. Yeah, there's a, there's a cold front around October 25, somewhere in that range, or even, even a few days on the front end, a few days on the back end. That is a really good time. You find a good scrape that it can, it can be really good. As far as full on running type action, it seems like from November 7 through 11th in that period, I, I really like it. And then the biggest of the big deer, it can be lonely days in the woods without a lot of movement. But that November 14 to 16th, 17th in that range right at the very end of the season is, is really good. But it's, it's a, it's not as it, it can question your mental state sometimes because you don't see a lot during that time period. But some of the biggest of the big are out roaming looking for some of those last doses.
[00:23:02] Speaker B: They're, they're smart enough and been around enough seasons. They know there's some, something still happening and it's, and it's, you see that in turkeys, too. You know, at the end of the tur, at the end of spring turkey season, a lot more of those gobblers have been around a few years or, you know, they're still searching for hens. And the two year olds are like, worn out because they've been like running around high school kids chasing, looking for dates. And that it makes it makes total sense. That's great information. And, you know, one of the mistakes I think a lot of folks make with trail cameras. Cause look where it's come. I mean, I remember the first ones with 35 mm. You'd take it and get it developed. You're probably too young to remember.
[00:23:36] Speaker A: No, I actually, that's my first trail camera I had was 35 millimeter. And my dad would take me to CV's.
[00:23:42] Speaker B: Yes. He couldn't wait to get it.
[00:23:43] Speaker A: You pay a little extra for the 1 hour development.
[00:23:46] Speaker B: Yeah, but, you know, nowadays your phone buzzes and you got a picture, and I see and hear and talk to people that I'm, even. My good friends are like, I'm not getting anything on camera. I'm not going hunting. And it drives me crazy. Still hunting. They're letting that trail camera, you know, like you said earlier, it doesn't take place. It doesn't take any place of boots on the ground or time in a tree or whatever. And I think that's a huge mistake. I don't know what your feelings are. Yeah.
[00:24:09] Speaker A: So. And it's. And I will say, like, even for myself, when I do run cell cameras, a lot of the areas I hunt, I don't have good enough cell service to do that. But it can be a good thing and it can be a bad thing. Cause you start, you start living by those cameras, and that's not. I've seen so many people, like you said, do that exact same thing. And I've come into the trap at times, too, of like, oh, you know, and. But by the time you get that intel, it's already done.
[00:24:34] Speaker B: Right?
[00:24:34] Speaker A: It's. It's already too late. But what I do like about is you don't have the intrusion as far as being able to get into the woods and, you know, besides changing out batteries, really. But to get that information. But I would really urge people, from my experience, to not rely so much on them. Use them as a tool, but don't rely on them of where you're going to go and hunt. That's one thing that, as far as the real time data that I will use is, okay, you start seeing some action, some things heating up, specifically around the rut, and it's like, okay, that area is starting to get hot now. It's like, okay. That, you know, okay, there might be some rutting action in there to take advantage of, but as far as you're, you know, you're waiting for a big buck to show up.
I rarely see in big wood settings deer on any sort of patterns that are daily. Like, it's not. You're just chasing your tail a lot.
[00:25:35] Speaker B: Especially as you get towards the rut and the hot doe might walk by and a deer you don't even knows around. Yeah, you know, that's a lot of big deer shot because of luck, too. I mean. Oh, yeah, yeah, probably the majority of them.
[00:25:46] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. No, you're exactly right there. But no, the cell camera thing, like when, especially when I talk to newer hunters, a lot of questions get, you know, what cell cameras should I buy? And it's like, okay, hold on a second. Like, yeah, cameras can be a great tool, but there's a lot of things that you can learn of being out there, just going out and observing and seeing things before. You know, cameras are, they're not an end all, be all.
[00:26:12] Speaker B: So, you know, the more you're talking, you have your science the way that you have this down to a science. And I'm sure that you're also open minded that you learn every single day of your life. And that's important, too. Like, when we think we know it all, they're gonna humble us.
[00:26:26] Speaker A: Oh, every time.
I have a way that I like to do things, but is, by no means is it right. It's just what I like to do and what I've found that works for me. But every year I'm learning so much, and there's so many times that, like, you know, I'll get messages from people during hunting season, like, oh, I'm doing this. I'm struggling. I'm not seeing this. What should I do? I'm like, keep doing it. Like, it just takes time. It takes time to learn it and be able to adjust and make, you know, movements and stuff. And, you know, I hunt. I don't at this point, I'll hang any fixed stand. So I'm always moving as I'm going through. And that doesn't mean I won't hunt the same tree three, four, five days in a row. But I'm always making micro adjustments to get and seeing what the woods are showing me to be able to move.
[00:27:15] Speaker B: Yeah. And that's. I mean, do you find the first time? Let's. Let's talk about that a little bit, because especially in the big woods and, you know, first, you know, we hear this all the time, you know, you know, there's no deer there. And, you know, there was a time when I was a kid, the deer herd was crazy. I mean, you know, you'd see 20 or 30 deer in a group in gun season and one spike following them up and, yeah, I mean, you hunted all season to try to find the legal spike and times have changed. I mean, we're in the greatest times ever in my opinion, as far as our deer.
[00:27:44] Speaker A: We were just talking about that last night. I was like, this is probably like, we'll probably look back and hopefully it continues just to go that way. But it was just like, this is probably some of the best times that we've had, at least in the areas that, that I hunt. Deer numbers? Yes. Are they lower than in farm country? Yes, but they've, they've gotten to a point where there's less days that I'm not seeing deer, but even when you don't, it doesn't mean they weren't 50 yards from you and you couldn't see them. And that's. And, but it's also a good buck, the dough ratio where it's, they have really good food, too. And the forest management has been great. And I've loved seeing all the different, the generations of cuts and everything that have come through there to be able to help regenerate in the browse. And these deer are healthier, the bodies are bigger.
And then also I was saying with the buck to doe ratio, it makes the rut more exciting because the deer have to travel a little bit versus areas that have a ridiculous amount of. Does those bucks don't need to go very far, you know?
[00:28:47] Speaker B: Right. I mean, it's, it's, it's, when you look at it, it's all common sense, you know? And when, you know, you get up in that big woods, no, there's not a deer behind every tree. There's certain, certain things you look for, you know, and that kind of blends us into the next thing. Like when you're out here, you know, even when we get close to deer season, is there certain terrains that you favor? I mean, obviously the food stuff we talked about earlier, you know, is there any kind of vegetation cover, you know, that you really try to key in on or you think is key to your success?
[00:29:16] Speaker A: I like when I'm looking at a map and I'm looking at an aerial view of an area to see somewhere I want to go to. I want to see as much color as I can, so as much diversity as I possibly can. Because to me that means that there's going to be food, there's going to be cover, and there's going to be edges. And deer like to work edges of things, but, you know, if you go to areas that are all just big mature forests and oak trees. Well, if there's not an acorn crop, the deer may not be there, but if you go to an area that has some oak trees and mature woods, and then they've got a three year old clear cut over here, and they have a 15 year old clear cut over here, and then you have conifers wrapping around the side hill, and you've got all these different things. Okay, there's no acorns, not a big deal. I've got all these BlackBerry briars and I've got all this other stuff that I can feed on, browse. And, and so I want areas with diversity and vegetation, more so than even specific vegetation type is just diversity in that. And now when I can combine that with different terrain that butts up against that, that creates funnels for the deer to go through. Now they can go other places, but something that's just gonna, if you know your deer walking through the woods and you're looking through, it's like, okay, that seems like the path to be able.
[00:30:30] Speaker B: To, you get that gut feeling to.
[00:30:32] Speaker A: Be able to walk. And I, and I do for the most part. I'll look at, I'll look at a map and I'll look at what are the prevailing winds for that area and try to be on the leeward side. So the side that the wind is blowing to, because it gives them that advantage, especially in hill country, of you have the daytime thermals that are coming up, and then you got the predominant wind that's blowing over, and it kind of gives them a safe path where they're being able to smell around. So they tend to be on that side a lot. But to caveat that cover, to me, is one of the most important things. So if you have a wide open hillside on the leeward side, but the other side's got mountain laurel and it's got some briars and some brushy patches, I'm going to go on that windward side because it just seems like to me, especially with mature deer, that they favor that cover in the places that, that I like to hunt.
[00:31:24] Speaker B: That's how they got mature. That's how they got, they stayed away from us.
[00:31:27] Speaker A: That's exactly right. So to me, it's like finding those places and then just walking them. You know, it starts with the e scouting at home and finding those places and then just walking them. And I start with just a very high level. I have points of interest that I want to go to, and I'll walk through and let the sign kind of dictate my, my travel route. And then after I see things that I like, the next time I'll go in there, I might, you know, grid it a little bit more and try to get the whole picture of what's going on. But I will say, like, if someone that's not, not experienced with scouting places like that, the best place to start is by walking crick bottoms, because the sign is, you can see the tracks better because it's usually softer down there, and you can see tracks, you can see trails, and then work your way out from there.
[00:32:13] Speaker B: Let's talk about that, because one of the biggest mistakes that I think I made early in my career was seeing all that sign in creek bottoms, you know, especially in the bottom of a bowl or something. And, like, I got to have a stand here. Well, as soon as I put that stand there, the wind in those creek bottoms, you just get a non consistent wind a lot of times, and it. Sometimes you can spend a lot of time in there letting deer know you're around. I mean, if you're not, that wind is so crucial, but it's also so tough in our state. I mean, consistent, you know, like you said, thermals and everything like that. But a constant southwest wind isn't always southwest in Pennsylvania.
[00:32:49] Speaker A: It's not like Iowa, where rarely, it's flat.
[00:32:51] Speaker B: Right, right. And that's another thing you probably pay attention to is like, okay, the predominant wind is coming from north northwest. You get in there and it's totally backwards. I mean, I've had that happen a bunch to myself, and I'm sure you've seen the same all over the place, especially in the bigger woods where you're from.
[00:33:06] Speaker A: Yeah. And, and so with those bottoms, to me, if I'm going to hunt a bottom, there's, there's a. It's usually got to, it's got to be wide enough. You get certain narrow bottoms. You got that. That wind and the thermal, everything's interacting is creating that swirling effect that you're talking about now. If you get a place that has a little bit of a wider bottom that goes up, and if you set, if you set up, like, right on the water, sometimes if that body of water is big enough, it'll pull your thermals down. I actually shot my last two deer in pa sitting right on the water. I climb up a tree right on it because you could walk ten yards out, and you'll have swirling and everything going on. But on that water. And it has to be a calm day, but it just pulls down through and helps with you there. But. But to. To go back to what you're saying with the swirling aspect of it, that's where you find that sign. That might be a good spot to put a camera and kind of see what's going on there. But to find that consistent win, because you can find the best spot in the world. But if you can't beat their nose, which you can't.
[00:34:07] Speaker B: Right.
[00:34:08] Speaker A: It's. It's. You have to find a spot that you can go. So I'll walk those trails out and try to see where they go to and have a more favorable right spot to be able to hunt.
[00:34:16] Speaker B: So, you know, and this one. This one's hard to. To talk about. I mean, pressure. Let's talk about pressure. Our deer get an exorbitant amount of pressure. And, you know, I'm sure one of your tactics is to get away from pressure. Like, you're the only person in there, I would imagine. I mean, but pressure does so much to deer movement that it's. That we don't realize. I mean, I watch it in a little microcosm at my house where once bow season starts, the neighbor starts doing this. You start seeing less deer. They're still there.
[00:34:43] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:34:44] Speaker B: They're just not being visible like they were, and they're staying away from folks in our state. We see that so much. It's not that the deer aren't there. Like you said earlier, it could be 50 yards. They're learning how to stay away from us.
[00:34:55] Speaker A: Oh, they're. They're learning to hold tight. I mean, I don't know if they're. If that's evolving or I'm just noticing it, but they're. They are 100%. Not 100%, but they're a lot of times holding tight, and they'll let you walk right past until you stop, and then it's like, sometimes they'll. They'll get up and go off. But what I. With areas with pressure, I've. For a long time, I was just trying to completely avoid it, get as far in as I could and get away from it. But what I've learned is you can. Can utilize that pressure to your advantage. And even in places that are heavily hunted, there's always those safe zones where those deer will feel safe and can go to. And. And, you know, there was an area I was hunting last year that was pretty heavily hunted, and I never saw another person there because I found one of those spots where it was just like, people weren't there, and there was really good action in there and some really good, good intel to be able to learn from. And another place that I had that where I had a camera sitting there, I just left it all year, and when I went back and checked it, I was like, holy cow, there was deer in daylight there the whole first two weeks in November. And I know there was a lot of people hunting in the area, but just not at that specific spot. So when you're hunting areas with pressure, it's a lot of, to me, it's just trying to find where the people aren't.
[00:36:16] Speaker B: It's like Corey's buck. I mean, Tioga State Forest. I mean, he told everybody where he shot it, but, and he also knew that there was a lot of people in there and people that knew about that deer. And he was, you know, you kind of get attached to something like that once you find it and, you know, he just was at work or whatever and saw this, you know, looked up, saw that, hey, there's some red oaks that are dropping real hard. There's lots of deer sign. And he goes, I got to get in there when the wind's right. And it just happened.
[00:36:41] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:36:41] Speaker B: And it was an area that lots of people, you know, had been through, but that deer felt safe there. You and he talked about a lot of aspects, and I heard you say slopes. Is there any particular slopes that you prefer or do you think deer prefer when you look in that big country?
[00:36:58] Speaker A: Well, I guess to me, as far as the different slopes, I struggle with saying the top third of the hill or the middle or the bottom, because it really depends on what the food is doing there. But they tend to, like, tend to like the upper kind of third, but I like being the first bench down.
[00:37:17] Speaker B: That's been an old, old tale for a long time. Old timers, too.
[00:37:22] Speaker A: But at the same time, I've also learned that sitting right on that flat bench, you can miss things because deer will skirt just over the edge. So I like to, if I'm going to set up to where I can shoot, you know, down over the, the bottom side and to, you know, sometimes those benches will have scrapes on it. But I also want to take advantage of what's the skirt down. You might have the. The does and the young bucks that'll go across that bench. And if that's what you're looking for, that's, that's great. But a lot of times, the mature deer will skirt that just downwind of it. They can smell that scrape and never have to walk in front of it never have to walk in front of your camera.
[00:37:58] Speaker B: Right.
[00:37:58] Speaker A: And they're still there to be able to use it.
[00:38:01] Speaker B: Turkeys, a lot of times, big old gobblers are the same way. You know, you obviously want to try to get uphill or same level, but you get that bench and you sit back there and you call in, and he's right over here. Goblin. Well, there's a reason he's not coming up there, because he's probably got, you know, longer spurs.
[00:38:15] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:38:16] Speaker B: And he probably knows that he's over there drumming. That hen should come over there to him. And the last time he walked up over there, someone sent a load of sixes over top of his head, and, you know, something's not. And that happens all the time with turkeys, too. And I've switched. I used to sit back there and like, oh, this is great. Now I've learned, like, I'm gonna get over where I can see over a little bit, just in case he wants to just show off a little down over this hill.
[00:38:36] Speaker A: Well, it's funny you say that about turkey. So this year, I was, I was hunting. There was this, this bird I knew he was big old bird, and, and he, I knew where he was roosting at. A lot of times, I would get close to him, and that bird was so smart, and I did not kill him, but he, he would wait. I mean, he didn't fly down until 08:00 in the morning till every hen was down, and he dropped right down in the middle of them, and then he'd shut up. And it was like, I mean, I spent a whole week trying to get this bird.
[00:39:02] Speaker B: No, we all went to high school with that guy that could go out and, you know, he just stand there and all the girls would flock to him, like, how's this happening? And that's one of those goblins. And he was smart enough that he, he's not going to come out of there early because he knows. And if they don't show up that day, he's not, he's, he's not going to fall for your tricks.
[00:39:19] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:39:19] Speaker B: There's turkeys out there like that.
[00:39:20] Speaker A: Yeah. He was laughing at me. I know that.
[00:39:23] Speaker B: Here's the good thing. He'll be there next year.
[00:39:24] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:39:25] Speaker B: God willing.
[00:39:26] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:39:26] Speaker B: So when you look at scouting, I mean, and even shooting, you need practicing. You know, tons of people stop practicing when season comes in, and I think it's practicing, you should shoot a couple hours a day when, during season, when you can. I mean, even if you got turn the lights on and shoot a spot at 20 yards, whatever. Just a muscle memory. But talk about scouting through the season, because we get so involved in entrenched of time in that stand, and I'm sure that, that, you know, you being a mobile hunter, we'll talk about that set up, too, because it's something that I've, you know, you know, just catching on like wildfire.
[00:39:59] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:39:59] Speaker B: And I'm sure it's helped increase your odds tremendously.
[00:40:04] Speaker A: But, yeah, scouting in the season for I, you can do as much. I do a lot of post season, as I said, or spring scouting and into the summer, and that's all really good, but nothing replaces what is actually happening right now. So when I'm, when I'm out hunting, you know, I say that in the quotations, that air quotes that a lot of my time isn't actually spent in the tree. It's trying to find that sign and make sure I'm in the game, because sometimes sitting in the tree, you're not in the right spot. Not that you're wasting time, because it's great to be out there no matter what, but I want to put my odds in my favor when I can. So I'll spend way more time on the ground scouting, maybe still hunting with my bow in my hand, kind of sneaking around and trying to find that sign throughout the season, and then when it gets to the rut, it's more. So me, I'll sit in, you know, funnels and stuff and do less scouting, more actual hunting at that time, but throughout the other times, everything's changing so, so rapidly. Every week in October, you know, leaves are coming off the trees. So maybe a good bedding area isn't a good bedding area anymore because it's. It's kind of open now and that things are changing. Food sources. If there's an area with cherry trees, the black cherries are all scooped up, so they might not be feeding there. You know, some acorns might be scooped up now, and now they're moving here. So it's constant trying to stay on.
[00:41:22] Speaker B: That, stay on top of it.
[00:41:23] Speaker A: You know, even if I, if I think about it, when I go to out of state trips, too, it's. It's. If I have five days to hunt, I might spend three days scouting.
[00:41:31] Speaker B: I was just gonna say that if you look at the western style, you spend way more time looking in glass and trying to find things before you actually go in there and try to hunt it. I mean, especially us going out west and never, maybe never laid eyes on this place. We got to learn it fast, and the best thing we can do is learn from a distance.
[00:41:48] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think early on, when I started doing that, I'm like, oh, I only have five days to be here. How am I supposed to do this? Well, I felt like I was better spent spending most of that time scouting until I found what I wanted to see and then hunt, because I was more in the game than just sitting in a tree for five days and hoping something comes by.
[00:42:11] Speaker B: When we talk about those big mountain bucks, in hunting them for yourself, you know, it's such a challenge. But what is your biggest reward?
[00:42:19] Speaker A: When you look at that, to me, it's because it seems like there's very rarely that a season just, things just all work out, and it just happens the first time you go in. Very rarely does that happen. So, to me, it's the reward of going through your hunting. You're in beautiful places and working extremely hard. Sometimes, you know, some of my places I'm hiking into are over a couple miles in. Sometimes they're not. But you're working really hard for it. And then when you finally get that, that moment, it's just, it's incredible. And I know how it's just so difficult every year. It doesn't get any easier for me to shoot a buck there. It's just, you have to put it anytime I think I'm doing well and if I slack at all, I'm reminded really quick. So it's super rewarding when you do have that all come together.
[00:43:09] Speaker B: And we face challenges, too, because as birthdays happen and we get older, it makes it, I mean, things get tougher. It's just a factor of life, and we get Lazier. And, you know, sometimes those animals do the same thing as they get older, but they're always, you know, if every, if every day we left our house or woke up and something was trying to get at us, whether it, you know, it's a natural predator or, you know, a human, whatever it is, we'd figure out how to stay away from it. I mean, big time, nothing I wanted to talk about, you know, is something that us, that I've learned recently that we share is Lyme disease and ticks. And I think anything we can talk about is the good stuff. But I think this is something that we, that folks really need to, you know, pay more attention to out there because Pennsylvania is getting bad as far as ticks, and I think we still lead the country in Lyme cases. And I, you know, talk about some of the things that maybe people should look for that you think, and things they can do to help guard themselves when they hit the woods.
[00:44:03] Speaker A: Yeah. And I was diagnosed, I think it was about ten years ago now, but they think I might have had it for a few years before that. And honestly, I would always, you know, I had sprayed down some of my clothes, but what I. What I lacked on was the discipline of reapplying. You know, sometimes beginning of the season, I would spray down my clothes, or I would go out summer scouting and not spray down my stuff, acting like, you know, the ticks decide they're going to take off because it's not hunting season. And so right now it's. I'm very.
I spray all my clothes down. I mean, even stuff that I'm, you know, if I'm doing yard work around the house, like, I'll have stuff sprayed down and tucking your clothes into things. Like, I. I remember when my dad would tell me, tuck my pants into my socks, like, to be able to have it, or if you have boots or something to try to make sure places they can't crawl through it. But I spray my clothes, my base layers, my outer layers, my gloves, my boots, my socks with permethrin and let it dry and then be able to wear it. And then, you know, I think it's every six washes you're supposed to reapply or every couple months to be able to put it, put it, reapply it on there. But making sure that your cover and your basis is all the time, because you can get it as much, you can get it in the deep woods as you can in your yard, and also just making sure that you do a thorough check. You know, when I'm out scouting, I like to wear light colored pants because then I can see them easier if they are crawling on. But honestly, since I've been disciplined with spraying down my stuff, I don't see them on me much anymore.
[00:45:38] Speaker B: Yeah, I got it about the same time in the same situation. It had lived in me for a while and didn't know it, and mine actually affected my blood pressure. Went through the roof, like 202 over 90. When they found that I should have been stroking out and they didn't know what was wrong. Didn't know what was wrong. Anyway, got the western blot and it showed up. But when I showed my doctor, I went to a Lyme specialist at this time. He's actually just passed away. A year and a half ago, he was down towards Harrisburg area.
I showed him my belt line, because it just came out of turkey season when this was going on, and he goes, are those all tick bites? I'm like, I've spent my life turkey hunting all over the country. Yeah, I get hundreds of ticks on me. You know, just before, like you, I'd spray down once and I'm like, I'm good. And then you think you're immune to it. But I don't wish it on anybody.
[00:46:26] Speaker A: It's.
[00:46:27] Speaker B: And it can really, the best thing to do is get it early, but you gotta pay attention to them out there. And that's, that's one of the things I think is real important as we sit here today.
[00:46:35] Speaker A: And what's crazy is everybody has different effects after Lyme. Like, there's very rarely two people that have the same impacts, but they're all negative, right. For me, it was, they said, because I didn't get it diagnosed for so long, that it led to food allergies. So I can't eat gluten, I can't eat dairy anymore. And so all of these things, when I have those things, I get brain fog. I'm super tired, joint pain, all that stuff. And that came from having Lyme and it damn little. Yeah, it's like these little ticks. Yeah. That are able to do it, you know, and if you do get bit by a tick, you can send it in and get it tested, see if it has Lyme and it, I think it's like five days. The turnaround on being able to know, it's. It's highly recommended.
[00:47:24] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:47:25] Speaker A: Doing that.
[00:47:26] Speaker B: So pay attention to that. And, you know, one other thing before a couple, two more questions. One is, you know, if you have any advice to folks out there that, you know, just want to step up the game and head to the big woods.
[00:47:37] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:47:38] Speaker B: What, what would that. If you had a couple little things and we talked about a ton of it. But, I mean, most important, I guess.
[00:47:43] Speaker A: Honestly, for, it's not even a specific strategy or anything. It's go into it with the mindset that you're looking for to have that adventure side of it and enjoy it because it, you don't have to enjoy the process of, if you want to be successful at it, working really hard and doing that, but enjoy it because it's. It's cool to me to, to be able to go and as far as you can see, you can hunt and you can explore and you can go do that. Like, I love every aspect of it. I like the scouting probably more than I do the actual hunting. A lot of times I love walking in the woods and, and getting out there. And if that's, you know, a lot of, a lot of people that I find that do get into it, maybe have hunted more suburban type stuff or smaller parcels, enjoy it and get out there and, and, and put it, if you think you put in enough work, try to do a little more, that's right.
[00:48:31] Speaker B: That's all you can do. But, bo, I really appreciate you coming on and helping us out, and we're proud to have you from be a fellow Pennsylvania boy. But, you know, the other thing, and this is something that hit me hard in the last five years, and I just want to get, and there's no right answer to this or wrong answer, but when you think of the word conservation, it's a term I think is used very loosely a lot of times. But to you, what would your definition of conservation be?
[00:48:57] Speaker A: That's a difficult question.
[00:48:59] Speaker B: Well, it's a reaction we get a lot, and because there's a lot of meaning to it, everybody individually. But it's so important as we look, as we look to the future.
[00:49:08] Speaker A: Yeah, to me, it's not looking at it as of today, tomorrow, it's looking at it at what's this gonna look like ten years down the road? What's gonna look like 15 years down the road? And kind of almost as far as planning for that for the next generation and being able to have those experiences that we're having today to make sure that those continue and hopefully get better.
[00:49:29] Speaker B: That's awesome. Yeah. Cause we gotta hand it off. Yeah, I mean, you look down here, I mean, everybody down here, their dads and moms probably shot archery and they hand it off and burnt that passion. That's awesome. But, you know, any, any last words to our folks out there in Pennsylvania?
[00:49:42] Speaker A: No, I just, I greatly appreciate the, the opportunity and being able to come on and talk to you, Matt, and getting to meet you. So I really appreciate that.
[00:49:49] Speaker B: What if somebody wants to get ahold of you or check out your stuff? Let's, let's talk about that. I mean, I'm sure your website, and if you want to share that with us.
[00:49:56] Speaker A: Yeah. Eastmeatswesthunt.com or you type in my name, beaumartonic, anywhere. I'm active on social media, the podcast east meets West hunt, YouTube, Bomar tonic, and any of those places you can, you can find me.
[00:50:09] Speaker B: Okay. Yeah, I encourage everybody to check it out. There's lots of, you have a great podcast, lots of great information out there, and you know. Let's stay in touch.
[00:50:17] Speaker A: Yeah. Thank you.
[00:50:17] Speaker B: Absolutely. Thank you, buddy. Yes, sir. Thank you.
