Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: We've got trail camera pictures, ring doorbell footage you know, of, you know, you can just see the little antenna sticking out.
[00:00:05] Speaker B: Our hens that tend to nest on what you would consider goat terrain, those rocky outcroppings that's just big mature timber tend to be the ones that are successful at hatching young.
[00:00:13] Speaker C: One in particular went about 14 miles and ended up having a successful hatch and went another six with, with a brood.
[00:00:20] Speaker D: Is that common when they get flushed off nests that they abandoned.
[00:00:23] Speaker B: They're just going to start, they're just going to try again somewhere else.
[00:00:26] Speaker D: Hello and welcome to Call of the Outdoors, the podcast of the Pennsylvania Game Commission. It is turkey time and we have some wildlife techs joining us today from all across the state to talk about the turkey study that's happening right here in Pennsylvania. Stay tuned. I'm excited to talk about turkeys and I'm excited to learn what we've learned in the last three years with this wild turkey project.
For Pennsylvania hunters and conservationists, our roots run deep. The episodes we bring to you on the Pennsylvania Game Commission's podcast, Call of the Outdoors will take a deep dive into exposing the incredible work being done by agency staff and partners, including statewide habitat projects, the science behind wildlife management, and what drives agency decisions. The Pennsylvania Game Commission's mission is twofold. To manage and protect wildlife and their habitats for not only current, but future generations, and to promote hunting and trapping in the Keystone State. Foreign we got a packed house here at Call the Outdoors today and I'm excited about it. We're talking about turkeys. I mean, if you don't, if you can't get, I just got goosebumps because we're in that time of year, you know, the winter's end in the cold weather, getting some warm weather, people are hearing them gobble and we're talking about the projects that we have going on here at the Game Commission. We're studying turkeys. You guys are out there in the field every day and I want you all to introduce yourselves. You know, I want to start right here on my left and tell them what you do for the Game Commission and like your mission on a pretty much daily basis.
[00:01:59] Speaker C: Yeah. So I'm Andrew Cushman. I'm the wildlife technician in Management Unit 3D in the Northeast region. So I oversee a crew of three other individuals, pretty much just operate day to day operations for some turkey working that we're doing.
[00:02:15] Speaker D: So what's your nickname?
[00:02:18] Speaker C: The guys up there just call me the turkey guy.
[00:02:20] Speaker D: I love it. I love it.
[00:02:21] Speaker A: Yeah. So my name is Rachel Pinell. I work out of the Southeast region, particularly wildlife management unit 5C. I've got a crew of three folks. And you know, whether that's tracking birds, trapping birds, it's turkeys every day.
[00:02:33] Speaker D: And your nickname?
[00:02:34] Speaker A: My nickname's Turkey Girl. Yep.
[00:02:36] Speaker D: I'm seeing something like a common pattern.
[00:02:39] Speaker B: Yeah, there's a trend there. I'm the turkey guy for the North Central. Which of the regions is probably the best of them all? So 4D Wildlife Technician. And it's just as Rachel and Andrew said, turkeys all day, every day.
[00:02:52] Speaker D: And your name's Tony.
[00:02:53] Speaker B: It is Tony. It is Tony.
[00:02:55] Speaker D: Well, thank you for coming down. I know you guys are busy and in the middle of things and I know a lot of things are wrapping up and, you know, I'm gonna go to Rachel, give us a brief overview of the turkey study that's been going on where we're at. And, you know, there's a little bit left of it too, before results come out.
[00:03:12] Speaker A: Sure, sure, yeah. So this project was initiated 20 winter. And the idea is that we're putting these backpack transmitters, they're little units like this, they've got a little antenna on the back on, on hands across four study areas. So 3D, 2D, 5C and 4D.
Every year there's 25 of those backpack transmitters that get put out for a hundred across the state for a four year period. That's 400 transmitters.
And what we're looking at with those tracking units, it takes a GPS coordinate 24, 7, 365. We program them differently for different seasons. So sometimes every. Sometimes every half an hour.
But what we're trying to get at is that fine scale data of where are these hens going and why are they going where they're going. We know that there's a lot of questions that researchers turkey hunters have. Where are hens making their nests? How many nesting attempts are they making? How many eggs are they laying? Are all of those laid eggs actually hatching? Where do they take their broods when they're successful? What do they do when they're unsuccessful? And so with all of those questions and these tracking units, we determine that there's five factors that are influencing turkey populations that investigated as part of the study. Those are habitat disease, hunter success, predation and weather patterns. That's kind of the general overview. Feel free to tag in, Tony and Andrew.
[00:04:32] Speaker D: Well, I think a lot of those things that we're looking at are, you know, we, as turkey hunters, we make educated guesses all the time, you know, and you know, I've heard all kinds of theories and the coolest part about this is the data that we're going to get that we're going to really be able to answer some questions. And is there any other parts of the, of the study? I know there's some other things that we're looking at too.
[00:04:52] Speaker B: Yeah. So this, well, let's just say this went from a Pennsylvania study to a whole Northeast Atlantic study with Ohio.
I'm sorry, Ohio, Maryland, New Jersey's involved. I think Rhode island even jumped on board. Parts of West Virginia. Virginia. So this is blowing up, which is phenomenal for, for the turkey community.
And then there's been side projects as well, which I think we're going to get into later, Matt, with some of the disease stuff as well as gobbling crippling loss with Penn State.
But yeah, it's, it definitely blew up and it's, it's been quite the ride.
[00:05:31] Speaker D: Yeah, that sounds awesome. I can't imagine waking up every day and just being with turkeys. I'm not used to picking one up and then letting it back go. Usually when I'm picking one up, it's like it's flopping. But we'll get to that later. We're going to get to some, maybe some tips you might have for our turkey hunters too. Anything did you want to add to that about the study?
[00:05:48] Speaker C: I think they covered it all pretty well. You know, I know we'll touch on a little bit on how we trap them a little bit later on too. So.
[00:05:54] Speaker D: So you, you guys and girls are in touch every day. You're talking strategizing and been together kind of what, four years, three years. How long you been working together?
[00:06:03] Speaker B: Yeah, the three of us have been together since the start.
[00:06:04] Speaker D: Okay.
[00:06:05] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:06:05] Speaker D: Awesome, awesome. And you're going to be here till you finish, right?
[00:06:08] Speaker B: I'd say I did.
[00:06:09] Speaker D: I got you. So like, for those that don't know, like, we have to catch these turkeys and you know, wild turkeys, pretty slick. And let's talk about that. Let's talk about how we catch them to get them radio collared and whatever else. I mean, you're probably taking samples and all kinds of things. You want to take that one, Tony?
[00:06:26] Speaker B: Sure. So turkey trapping, we use bait, get them onto bait and we shoot a net over them. But there's different forms and we all kind of have our different ways of doing it. The rocket net is probably the most common that people know.
[00:06:39] Speaker D: Thank God somebody invented that.
[00:06:41] Speaker B: Thank God. And you can go on YouTube and look, look up. That we have different ways how we go about doing that. But it's all generally the same way. We get them on debate, get them on a pattern, then you shoot a net over them and you go there.
[00:06:53] Speaker D: To set up and they don't show up.
[00:06:56] Speaker B: Yeah, that's turkey trapping. You might think you have a pattern, and turkeys being turkeys, they don't show up. Then you try again or you wait to get them back on a pattern. It's really what conditions are happening where somebody else feeding wildlife nearby that they're going to. You didn't know about before. But we've also tried different methods too. I mean, drop net.
We kind of got told that Easterns, you wouldn't be able to catch them under drop net like you can with Rios and Mariams. So of course, we had to dismunk this and we did it. And now all three of us have drop nets. They do work. It takes a little time to get them conditioned under them, but they do work. And the nice part with them is it's less invasive. Like the feather loss. You don't see it and all that. However, these turkeys don't get tangled, so they can just stand up and run out under the net and get away. But, yeah, it's.
[00:07:43] Speaker D: So once different, once the net drops on them, what do you do next?
[00:07:47] Speaker C: Run as fast as we can, try to get on top of them. So like Tony said, the rock and net, they get tangled up pretty good, but with the drop net, they pretty much just. It lands on. They can stand up and pretty much run right out. So. Yeah. Are they hard to catch sometimes, yeah. We'll throw blankets on them, try to calm them down. The darkness helps keep them calm and everything, but one little movement might. Might give them a little bit of light and they start freaking out again.
[00:08:17] Speaker D: So, I mean, when you think about a turkey's life, you know, ever since the day it's hatched out of that egg, something's trying to eat it, you know, and they're so aware of their surroundings, and I can't. Have you ever seen anybody, a turkey get the best of somebody when you're trapping them? Like flog them?
[00:08:30] Speaker B: Oh, absolutely.
[00:08:31] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. I mean, personally, yeah. Scars from spurs and everything in my hand.
[00:08:36] Speaker B: But it is funny, though. And you guys can chime in on this. Like I've noticed with the hens, once you get them in hand, they kind of just give up. They give in. Like, this is my fate. Okay. And they're just as calm as can be.
[00:08:46] Speaker D: Yeah. I've seen, like, people holding them like, it looks like they're pets.
[00:08:48] Speaker A: Oh, it's funny because I. I was driving on my way in, and I was like, yeah, I wonder what. Yeah, we did domesticate turkeys. It's like, huh, yeah, what an idea that they kind of chill like that.
[00:08:57] Speaker D: But, yeah, they do. True. And they do. But even, like, even when you get, like a barnyard turkey in the springtime, a gobbler, they get mean. I mean, very mean. And we had one in the parking lot yesterday at the game. And, you know, he's looking at him as smart, as much credit as we give turkeys. He's looking at himself in a car and just trying to beat himself up in the, you know, in the reflection. And it's like they can do some damage to your paint for sure. You know, they're tough. They're tough. They're tough birds, and they're very resilient. And, you know, myself and all the turkey hunters in Pennsylvania appreciate what's going on today because we're learning. You know, to date, this is the biggest study ever, I'm for sure, in the Northeast. It might even be throughout the country. And, you know, when you look at some of the information that's out there and the tests that have been done, a lot of the information we have on wild turkeys in your field, in the science field, is old. I mean, we've been following these practices for a long time, so there's going to be a lot come out of this. You know, when would we. When can our folks out there expect the results from this study?
Nobody's going to hold you to it. What are we looking at?
[00:10:02] Speaker B: I think 20, 27 is when you'll see things finalized and published. If we're lucky, maybe 26. But all the dates I've personally seen thus far, we have been 20, 27.
[00:10:14] Speaker D: That's the goal.
[00:10:14] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:10:15] Speaker D: I mean, that's the goal. So, I mean. And, you know, obviously, when that happens, we're going to come back and we're going to talk about those results, because I feel like we're going to find some really cool stuff, technology. I mean, let's talk about, like, when you have that turkey there, if you're not putting a radio transmitter on, what else do you do to those turkeys? The samples that you take from them.
[00:10:34] Speaker A: Sure. So. So turkeys that get transmitters, every. Every turkey that ends up under the net at that point there, for our research purposes, they'll get a leg band, and it's important to note too, that, like, as we're talking about turkey trapping, we talk about rocket netting and we use, you know, recreational explosives for that. And we follow us Fish and Wildlife Service, you know, trapping protocols with that. And we all go through extensive training. We're in the psu, Penn State University's Poultry Barns with our, our vet staff and some other wildlife health folks through University of Pennsylvania training us on how to do blood draws, how to do the different swabbing techniques that we utilize when we're collecting all these samples from the turkey. So transmitted birds will get a cloacal, a cloacal swab, a tracheal swab, and then a blood draw that's analogous to like if you were going to draw blood from the top of your ankle, you're essentially hitting its blood bone. That doesn't hurt the birds at all. We're able to stop the bleeding super quick.
We know that these are invasive practices to the bird, but we're trying our best to move efficiently and as quickly as possible so they can be released.
So as we put blankets on the turkeys, they go into these turkey boxes and sometimes the boxes can freak some landowners out, even some food and cover guys. Because historically these boxes have been used for trap and transfer for projects through National Wild Turkey Federation. It's important to note that for this project, we are not taking the turkeys anywhere. The only places that I have maybe taken turkeys, I held some birds overnight last year. So they were moved from the property, brought to the state game lands that was five minutes away, and then brought back the following morning to be released at sunrise. We try not to release them too late in the evening because they end up ground roosting. And that just puts the birds at more risk for predation after we do all this manipulation stuff to the birds. Right? So these biological samples then are sent to University of Pennsylvania in our Wildlife Futures Program, which is a agreement kind of between Pennsylvania Game Commission and University of Pennsylvania. All of our sample, like even your CWD testing and stuff like that all goes through those guys.
And what we're looking at with those biological samples is different viruses that turkeys can have. And we know that they're on the landscape. We're just not certain of their prevalence. And this goes back to one of those five factors that go and influence the turkey populations. And we're also looking at parasite loading as well as the co infections of both. So does she have a parasite? Does she have a virus? Does she have both? And how does that impact how many eggs she's laying, how many nesting attempts she's making, how does that contribute to her overall fitness of the population?
[00:13:07] Speaker D: You know, most people, if when you look at turkeys and disease, you think of pox, avian pox, that's like one of the most common ones you see and it's very noticeable. But there's probably, you know, you're getting to a lot more problems that a turkey can have, a lot more diseases that are out there in parasites. And that'll be cool to find that out, you know, and how it affects all the stuff that's going on. Because when you think about for a turkey to get its feathers and make it, how tough it is for a mama hen to raise one pole to success. And I mean, it's almost like, how did this happen? And I'm glad you hit on that point too because we hear it all the time, like we're trapping turkeys and we're trading them for things all over. I mean, you're right, it did happen at one time. I mean, when you look at populations across the country, target 2000 from the NWTF was huge. I mean there's turkeys in places. There was never turkeys here on Elmerton Avenue in Harrisburg. I grew up in Linglestown. We never had turkeys off that mountain. And when you look at where they're at today, they're everywhere. I mean, even like your old home state of New York, look at, I mean, Long Island. There's turkeys in the middle of the city down there. Yep.
[00:14:06] Speaker C: Yeah, they're booming out there. I mean you probably got to run into more cars killing them than anything, unfortunately. But yeah, yeah, they're definitely booming out there.
[00:14:15] Speaker D: So, you know, when you any of those kind of hit what those biological samples, is there anything else that you're getting data from that particular bird when you have it under the net, Tony?
[00:14:27] Speaker B: Oh, absolutely. I mean, right. Just looking at any bird, we're looking at sex ratios, age ratios, and that's all gonna go into the population model, which in turn is going to get used for the harvest. Harvest model, especially with those males.
And what was interesting just, you know, for this year alone is we talked about two years ago having a really good hatch out in 4D. Well, this year we were catching two year old toms left and right. It was unreal.
[00:14:57] Speaker D: You can't say that too loud.
[00:15:02] Speaker B: No, that's all right. I mean everybody, you know, as a turkey hunter, Everybody loves suicidal 2 year olds. They talk.
[00:15:06] Speaker D: But it's, that's when turkey hunting Is good when you have a good hatch and there's a bunch of two year olds. It's a bunch of high school boys out there.
[00:15:13] Speaker A: What game lands is this?
[00:15:14] Speaker B: I'll just say 4D. But yeah, it was interesting to see that, you know, after what we kind of saw with the data two years ago and then to see that this year, which, you know, it lines up as far as the hatch goes.
[00:15:25] Speaker D: Yeah, I love to hear. And we've had, I mean if you look at the last two, three springs, we've had really good years of weather. And obviously weather does affect the hatch. It has to. I mean when you look at, we have real bad years. It's rainy, cold, nasty springs. And I saw a lot of jakes last year. So I'm, you know, across the state. I mean not every. And there's cycles. I mean your area might be good and your area might have had some, some bad weather in that crucial time. I mean, I would guess we're going to find a lot more about that when the study's over. But I mean, you know, just like cicadas, you know, anywhere I've been in the, in the country two years after that giant cicada hatch, the population seems to be strong, at least more gobbles. And that's totally anecdotal. It's just something that I've noticed and you know, Mary Jo and I have talked about that quite a bit when I first got here because it was something that we tried to follow in the industry I was in. Like if we could find some place where cicadas. We're two years after that, we're trying to get there to go turkey hunting because it's some of the best days you ever have in the woods. But you know, one of the questions, and if there's any questions or myths you want to put out at any time, please, like, you know, we kind of talked. It's, it's an ongoing joke. But we do not trade turkeys for martins or coyotes.
Have you all seen a mountain lion while you're out there yet?
[00:16:39] Speaker A: No.
[00:16:39] Speaker D: Think about with all those turkeys around you that if we had a mountain lion it would be in there after them, wouldn't you?
[00:16:44] Speaker B: Now bobcats, that's a different story.
[00:16:45] Speaker D: Yeah, we won't, we won't go there. And predation is something that's a big topic across the country and I'm glad that that's part of the study. And I want to get to you a little bit later on that crippling project because we're looking at technology today and ammunition and choke tubes and you know, the TSS revolution and people are shooting at turkeys at a longer distance and I mean, it has to be out there. Turkeys are tough. I mean there's no, there's no doubt. I'm glad to hear about that. But you know, one of the things that we hear, you know, we get a lot of questions whether it's GM comments or on social media. And you know, I guess people have been around those trapping sites and they're asking that question, like, why did like you trap, you come in and trap turkeys and you do your work, you release them in the same spot and you don't see those turkeys for maybe a week or two. Is there any explanation to that?
[00:17:31] Speaker C: Yeah, so with the rocket net in particular, I mean it's an explosive, so you know, it's definitely startling for the whole flock. But then like Rachel had said earlier, it is pretty invasive, the kind of work that we're doing, taking these samples. So usually it just takes a couple weeks and they, you know, they acclimate to the, to the transmitter or the experience in general as well. We have seen with the drop net being used with, with magnets, you know, it's a lot, lot less startling for, for these individuals and you know, they typically come back, you know, relatively quick. But yeah, it's just a traumatizing experience for them.
[00:18:08] Speaker D: Well, turkeys are just, they're nervous all the time anyway in life. I mean it's, you know, you think about like we went home tonight and somebody exploded something and threw a net over our head. We'd walk in there the next day a little bit more cautious and I mean it's just animals. I mean we're predator on them and I mean we get it, but they're going to be back. It's not going to hurt them. And it's so important for the future. When we look at things, we hear this a lot about prescribed fire. You know, we get a lot of people that are just raising cane over prescribed fire. But when you look at the long term benefits of it, I mean, yeah, there might be something that some habitat to make better habitat that we have to give and take to get there. When you look at the long term benefit of that prescribed fire and how good it is for the habitat and the future of the species that benefit from that, you know, the pros way outweigh the cons and you know, we get that part of it and just, you know, trying to answer some questions that are out there.
[00:19:02] Speaker A: But before we move on, I'd like. I know he had touched on a couple weeks. I mean, I've had mine, I've had mine back in two days. And those locators, I mean, they give me a coordinate every half an hour, every hour. I can. Maybe they don't come right to your bird feeder, but they're in your backyard. And I can tell you that even if you weren't home.
[00:19:18] Speaker D: Let's talk about how the transmitters work, how you're getting that data from those transmitters. Once you put it. Let's take it. You put it, you backpack it.
[00:19:26] Speaker A: Turkeys get released in groups. Sure. So they go back in those transport boxes and then they get released in groups so that they're seeing the rest of their flock mates as they're released. And we. We found that something's kind of changed since the beginning of the project to now what we do.
But we've seen that we're getting better results and they're more flocked up immediately after release. When we do that, essentially, then that's trapping the turkeys. I always, when I'm talking to landowners, I'm like, that's the easy part, right? We show up that day, we're there for all day, and we've got a crew and we're all helping each other out, and we release the birds. Then that's when the real work begins. The GPS transmitters are designed to have a battery life of two years. So those GPS coordinates every half an hour, every hour, depending on the time of the year, are stored on the device itself. So I'm not able to log into the computer. There's some transmitters that have that capability. These hen transmitters do not.
I have to go into the field and retrieve that data off of that tag. And I have a little specialized computer and a couple antennas and a thing that beeps at a frequency similar to your car radio. And essentially that transmitter pings. And it pinged, ping, ping. And I'm able to judge how far I am from it, as well as what direction it is to get close enough to be able to download that data from there. It's on an SD card. I can throw that in my computer, load the file into gps, Google Earth, and see exactly where that turkey went. And I can see that she's with her buddies and they're mirroring. We call it mirroring when they're all kind of moving together like that.
But it's really important then too. Like, yeah, we trap them in the winter and we can see what Their winter movements are like. But especially this time of year, as we're transitioning from trapping into spring dispersal and nesting season, April through the end of June, they'll start dispersing away from their flocks. So we'll be in the field more tracking our birds. I know Tony had one that dispersed quite a ways.
I'm anticipating that mine will do that soon, but I've not had any of those.
[00:21:27] Speaker D: Are you noticing a difference in the geographic location?
My brain says spring breakup. That's what we've always called it when this happens. Like, are yours dispersing first before the northern turkeys, or is there any. Is there any difference? Are they all pretty much the same?
[00:21:44] Speaker A: So I'd say in the past, I know we're not supposed to really give away maybe. And I saw, like.
[00:21:48] Speaker D: Oh.
[00:21:48] Speaker A: And I can say anecdotally, like, my earliest nest incubation. So turkeys will have their, you know, nine to 14 days of egg laying, and she lays her egg every day at that same spot. And we're able to go into that GPS location data, and I'm able to pick out where that nest is even before she starts incubating. Because then when she's incubating, I get a coordinate every half an hour, and those are all on top of each other. I mean, we know where the nest is.
Now, sometimes with landowners, I can't tell you exactly where that nest is. I can say that there's a turkey nesting on your property. I can say it's over there or it's over there.
Go about your business. If you're going to mow your grass, mow your grass. Do exactly what you're going to do. Change nothing. But, you know, as I'm getting access so that I can visit that nest, then that's kind of what we talk about. But so as they're egg laying and they're nest incubating, I've seen as early as April 5th that that's the first nest that I've had initiated by hen for incubation.
[00:22:46] Speaker D: Oh, she's already laid and sitting.
[00:22:48] Speaker A: She's already laid and sitting. As of April 5, they say that the average is like, early May, mid May. So a lot of those hatch dates are around Memorial Day weekend, which is typically first cutting hay season. Right, Right. So in the southeast region that we get a lot. I get a lot that get whacked then.
But as far as what the transmitters tell us and. And all that kind of good stuff.
[00:23:07] Speaker D: Yeah, that's pretty awesome. Yeah, I can't wait to see you've.
[00:23:10] Speaker A: Got your one that's discussed.
[00:23:11] Speaker B: Yeah. I think we need to take a step back before we get to nesting and incubation with dispersal because it tends to blow a lot of minds how far some of these hens go. I mean, last year we. We had a bird in 4D that traveled 35 miles to where she finally said okay from her fall flock to where she was going to breed. And this year already, just last week, between Monday and Friday, we had a hen travel 11.7 miles, and she's potentially still going.
And it's interesting because it might be a juvenile, which people think, okay, you know, juveniles are gonna get pushed out, they're gonna disperse. Not necessarily.
I think Andrew, too, has had some. But like, we had two adult hens last year go 17 miles together before they broke off. It's. I'll be curious as far as results go with dispersal, how that, how that works. We don't tend to see that as far with the males, but out in Central pa, yeah, the hens, they can cover some ground. And once they decide to start going, they don't stop. It's. I'm gonna walk until I have to get in the roost that night, and then I'm gonna continue it till I get to my destination. And that could be a period of 2 days or 10 days. Just depends how far they wanna go.
[00:24:17] Speaker D: That's crazy. That just tells you girls are smarter than we are.
[00:24:20] Speaker B: Yeah, well.
[00:24:21] Speaker A: And just, I mean, I haven't had any go 35 miles per se, but I know local folks, like, I've had them go from the east side of Lake Nakamixon to the west side of Lake Nakamixon. And, like, how different is that habitat from one side of lake to the other? I don't know. But that's where that adult hen decided she wanted to be and she made that trip in a week.
[00:24:37] Speaker D: It's probably a bigger power than us, you know, and when you think about things like that and getting away from family bloodlines or who knows what that is? I'm just taking a stab at it. I probably shouldn't even weigh in on.
[00:24:46] Speaker B: No, you're right, though, because gene flow is a big thing to prevent ebreeding. I mean, we definitely see it out there. There's definitely gene flow occurring and it, you know, she might stop along the way and actually breed with a male and then breed with another male to. Wherever she gets, she's going, which I don't think we're gonna get all into paternity stuff. But, well, I was gonna ask you.
[00:25:03] Speaker D: Since you brought it up. Okay. Is there any.
[00:25:05] Speaker B: So that's, that's something else that's going on with the study as well. You know, we're collecting eggs and egg membranes from hatched eggs that's going to University of Pennsylvania and they're looking at that for paternity. And it's discussion, I would say, across the nation. At least the very. At the very least, the east side of the nation is looking at multiple paternity. How many males are fathering one clutch of eggs? And is that, you know, is that the way a hen is selecting to improve her fitness and her offspring's fitness?
[00:25:32] Speaker D: So when I'm out there calling, I'm trying to be that hen that every gobbler wants to be with. Absolutely. That's my goal. But in all reality, there has to be something to that, you know, because when you just watching turkeys and you know, the breeding ritual and how it happens, you always wonder how, you know, obviously we know the dominance factor and all that, but like that selection, that hen is so crucial to, you know, which gobbler is. She's going to be around. I mean, that's. It's pretty cool. I can't wait for some of this stuff to happen. And it's even getting better. You finding anything out there in your area like that on dispersal?
[00:26:04] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. I mean, we've had some hens we might touch on a little bit later with some broods that, that have gone significant distances as well, too. But, yeah, one in particular went about 14 miles and ended up having a successful hatch and went another six with. With a brood before even they were two weeks old. So, yeah, we see it. I mean, we're in some pretty dense woods, some. Certain parts 3D, right. They'll travel it too.
[00:26:29] Speaker D: So, yeah, and I mean, there's lots of factors in that, but that's. It's just great information to have because, you know, when you. When even myself, like my microcosm where I live, my turkeys disappear in October. Once the white oaks are down and they're gone, I don't see a turkey till winter. And then every year, end of February, beginning of March, all of a sudden, they show back up on my little ridge, you know, where there's water and I mean, it's just a great place. And they're there till about turkey season and they disappear again. And you always wonder, like, where do they go? I mean, they have their mind made up or they, they know where there's greener Pastures or whatever it is. And then hunting pressure is, you know, that has something to do with things too. The way they move around my place, because it gets hit pretty hard.
[00:27:08] Speaker B: You know, I think that's a big thing for, you know, for the hunters that are going to be watching. This is because we've put transmitters on gobblers.
How. Yes, the birds you see, you know, in the winter at your place probably aren't the birds that you're actually hunting that spring. And as they break up to form their social groups, a few might stay, but a few are gonna push off and you're gonna have others come in. And again, that's something still to be learned. As far as why are they doing that? Because I think, you know, down south, Dr. Mike Chamberlain has. Has looked at it is actually beneficial for maybe a less dominant bird to support a dominant bird for breeding rights, even though he's not the one directly doing the breeding of the hens.
[00:27:45] Speaker D: That's a. That's that looker. You got a strutter and a looker looker always get. You always get you as a turkey hunter. Like you. Because the strutters, his snooze hanging way down. You told him stuff that, like dirtiest stuff in the world. And he's coming in there and looking at your decoy and it's that looker that gets you every time. I mean, that's. And that's the less dominant turkey one. That's not displaying. That's. That's my redneck science right there.
[00:28:06] Speaker B: No, it's great.
[00:28:09] Speaker D: So when talking about incubating in the. The backpacks, does it interfere with any of the incubating process or is that that backpack that that hen's wearing? Is it. I mean, is it. She can pretty much function normally.
[00:28:22] Speaker C: Yep. Yeah, yeah, she'll. She'll function normally. So when we attach them, you know, it's a backpack that they're wearing, but we actually have a spacer block that we'll. That we'll put on as we're attaching it. Make sure it's. It's loose enough but not too loose that it's going to slip off. We haven't seen any sort of implications, you know, saying that it affects birds incubating.
[00:28:44] Speaker D: So it's just regular life after that thing's on there.
[00:28:46] Speaker C: It may take a few days after it's deployed for them to get acclimated, but after that, yeah, they function just as normal.
[00:28:52] Speaker D: Awesome.
[00:28:53] Speaker A: Yeah, because they'll preen it in and everything. We've got trail camera Pictures ring doorbell, footage, you know, of, you know, you can just see the little antenna sticking out.
[00:29:01] Speaker D: So let's talk about that for a second because, sure, it's something that, you know, obviously we've all seen dust bowls where they're taking a bath, but like, every feather. We made decoys from my old job and like avian X decoys. And I'm not giving them a plug. That's, you know, we were really big on trying to make it lifelike and preening and like when you see a wild turkey out there, their feathers are always perfect.
[00:29:23] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:29:23] Speaker D: Like they're gobblers and hens and there's something to it if you want to hit on preening, you know. Why does a turkey preen?
[00:29:28] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, so they're, they're getting themselves comfortable. They're rearranging. Rich and rearranging. But sometimes too, that like dust in there can keep, like the feather lice and parasites off of them.
[00:29:40] Speaker D: So they take a bath when they're done.
[00:29:41] Speaker A: Yes, they do. They do. And it's funny because as we talk about, like turkey trapping and things like that, sometimes we'll put the bait out and we're like, yeah, they hit it at like 10 o'clock in the afternoon. This, that, the other thing, not realizing that they're going to spend 2, 3 hours in the wood line before they come to the bait pile, dusting and preening. And we're just there waiting.
[00:30:00] Speaker D: They're teasing until. Yep, yep.
[00:30:01] Speaker A: And waiting and watching. And you're like, oh, I'd really love to get out of the truck to go pee in the woods right now. It's like, nope, can't get out of the truck. The turkeys are just right over there.
Yeah.
[00:30:10] Speaker D: Part of it. That's the struggles.
[00:30:12] Speaker B: Oh, yeah.
[00:30:12] Speaker D: When you think about a turkey's life, you guys out there every day, your boots are dirty. I mean, you're out there with them and you're learning the habits of these turkeys. Lots of people take it, you know, just like grit. That's a big one. People don't realize that turkeys need that every day, you know, to digest and correct me if I'm wrong, I would imagine that, like, they have to get grit because I imagine when it's in their crawl, it's. They expel it daily. So they have to replenish that.
[00:30:39] Speaker B: They do. And personally, we've even mixed them in with our bait because we've seen them pick it up on those years. Actually, this is one of the years we did it because we had the way the weather was, we had such an ice pack up on the mountains that they couldn't get to anything. And there'd be birds that would come in and just pick at the stones they didn't even want to bait.
But, you know, behaviorally, as you just said, Matt, the work we get to do, I mean, I personally feel blessed because it is phenomenal what we get to see working with these birds every day out there. And it's, you know, from a turkey hunter's perspective, a lot that I wouldn't know or how many different sounds and vocalizations these birds can make versus just what everybody thinks of maybe your purr, your yelp, your cut and your cluck. Like, it's way more than that.
[00:31:18] Speaker D: Oh, they're talking to themselves way more than that.
[00:31:20] Speaker B: And then, you know, the feeling and emotion behind it versus just the sound itself.
[00:31:24] Speaker D: I need to. Sometime we need to go visit Denny Galvis. I don't know if you guys have ever seen a podcast with Denny Galvis. He's an old turkey caller, a friend retired, and he probably spends more time with wild turkeys than anybody in the country is because he, like, he records them and, like, he's under turkey roost. I guarantee this morning he was under turkey. He doesn't care about gobblers anymore. He vowed never to hunt gobblers again. Long time ago. He made a promise with the turkey gods. But he loves this kind of stuff and. And he's begging to hear some of this information. So sometime we'll get.
[00:31:56] Speaker B: You guys see the gentleman that's. That's gotten our polk cows done, our polk calls, as far as doing the. The brooding work and stuff. Yeah, that might be the gentleman that actually records all that for us to call the hands in. So, yeah, that's.
[00:32:06] Speaker D: Yeah, he's. Yes, he's been on our podcast before.
[00:32:08] Speaker B: We know him.
[00:32:09] Speaker D: Yeah. And he's not a science biologist by any stretch, but he's like. He's so. I mean, when I was a kid, he would pipe. He had wild turkeys in a pen that he raised in captivity, and he'd pipe the sounds, like, into his bedroom. Like he wants to know why turkey yelps and why they're making that in the inflection. And he'd say the same thing. The range and stuff of vocalizations that turkeys make that we don't know about or we can't hear because we're not close enough. And that's. They're talking to each other just like we do every day. And you guys get to experience that on a daily basis. I'm jealous of that.
You know, when you think about nest sites, you know, when we're going down the list here from some of the preliminary data and I know we can't get too in depth before everything's final, but like do you see the hens using the same nest sites annually year.
[00:32:55] Speaker B: After year areas maybe It's a mixed events for sure.
[00:33:02] Speaker C: I know myself and Rachel definitely have had some, some overlap from previous years, you know, with within the same. Same general area for certain. So. But I'll let Rachel elaborate a little bit more.
[00:33:12] Speaker A: Yeah. So it's interesting and I have to give a little plug here because Penn State University Kyle Smelter, like this is all part of his nesting model and things like that. So there will be more like concrete evidence coming from this. But just anecdotally, I had a hen in 2022. She made a nest, had her successful brew. She didn't hatch till August. So some of our birds. I've had. I've had birds in 5C. I don't think you guys have had it happen quite as often as I do, but I've had birds make four nesting attempts.
[00:33:39] Speaker D: Wow.
[00:33:39] Speaker A: In a single season. So this was her third attempt, hatched in August.
Brood success. You know, we were able to follow those pulse and everything was good. She made it through that winter and then come the following spring is April and she's less than 100 yards from the same tree that she had had her successfulness. Now vegetation on the ground looks very different. August versus versus April. So that April nest, the landowner was walking their dog and the puppy flush flushed her and she did not return. There was 17 eggs in that nest bowl.
So it's interesting because they, it seems like they have a tendency to know I was successful here. I'm going to go back. But the thing is on that landscape between August and April is that that habitat is drastically different. Right.
[00:34:24] Speaker D: Is there any. Are we finding any common ground or where a hen will nest or is it vary?
[00:34:30] Speaker A: So I tend to like to say, even when our foresters and folks ask, like, it seems like it's like waist high, you know, about a yard up off the ground, whether that's, you know, in a hay field on their second nesting attempt, as that's greening up or that's Japanese barberry multiflora rose. That's what I typically see a lot of my hens using. They're in those kinds of thickets. Now. I can't say that they' Any more or less successful in those patches of invasives than they are in something of native. But that seems like what, what is offering them the best cover? You know, cover from predators from the ground but also from, from overhead. I on this project I'm surprised by the amount of like owl predations. I never thought oh yeah, an owl's gonna eat the turkey.
[00:35:14] Speaker D: Growing up at one time the great horned owl was a like one of the probably the biggest predator on wild turkeys, you know and I remember old studies back in, you know, in the 80s you'd hear that quite a bit. Whether that's true or not, I don't know but I. We don't realize that. It's just like bears. Like there's so many people that don't realize that a bear is a predator.
[00:35:33] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:35:33] Speaker D: You know, and hard on our whitetail fawns and same thing with great horned owls. You seeing any similarities?
Your areas are all different.
[00:35:42] Speaker B: It stresses.
[00:35:43] Speaker D: You don't have those invasives up there.
[00:35:45] Speaker B: No. We have a lot of rocks which it's our successful hens. It's. And this is just my observations. I don't want to steal Kyle's thunder here for at Penn State but our hens that tend to nest on what you would consider goat terrain, those rocky outcroppings that just big mature timber are tend to be the ones that are successful at hatching young, maybe not rearing them to adulthood. But yeah, it's, it's quite interesting. But these are the great horned out thing is has been huge because we'll lose 50 to 60% of our hens and that's across all study areas just during nesting. And a lot of times we walk into just a decapitated bird and she's targeting that hen on that nest at night. Yeah.
[00:36:24] Speaker D: I mean and they're silent. I mean that's what they're built to do.
You can imagine. I mean if you think about it that's. They're wicked and it's. I mean that's news has been around a long time and you know, I'm glad we're revisiting all that stuff because there's, I mean like, like we talked about earlier. Turkey's got a rough life. He's at. They're out there every day and you know we think about a gobbler springtime of the year, you know, he's out there announcing his presence to everybody as loud as he can. I mean that's when they become vulnerable to predation as well, I assume.
[00:36:54] Speaker B: Yeah, we Yeah, I mean, we can get into that later. We lost one as a result to an eagle and he had to be strutting in the middle of the day given the location he was at field with, you know, ankle high grass and it was definitely an avian predation. And yeah, I mean that was right in the middle of the season.
[00:37:08] Speaker D: It's what we get for running our mouth too much, you know. You know, when you. So let's say we have you, you put these transmitters on a hen and all of a sudden one goes missing.
You're not getting a signal and you feel it's still alive. How do you go about locating that? Let's talk about a day in the life of trying to find a missing hen out there.
[00:37:30] Speaker C: Unfortunately, it's a lot of driving, you know, for an extended period of time. We'll try to expend our ground searches as much as possible based on terrain. But we're actually fortunate enough to be able to fly with civil Air patrol too. So we'll be able to do some aerial telemetry from fixed wing aircraft.
So pretty much we'll just start at, you know, ground zero, I'll call it, you know, last known location. After that we'll, we'll just work radiuses out, just pretty much canvassing the whole area. There's some deep valleys. Try to, try to really focus on those because signal might, might be blocked up.
[00:38:04] Speaker D: That plane is going down in there.
[00:38:06] Speaker C: Not too, too much, but pretty much just trying to canvas the terrain as best as possible. So sometimes it's successful, sometimes it's not, and other times we're fortunate enough to be able to find them from the ground. But yeah, just a lot of searching and trying to cover as much ground as possible because as Tony said earlier, these birds move and they can cover a lot of ground quick.
[00:38:29] Speaker D: Do you get attached to any of these turkeys?
[00:38:32] Speaker B: I haven't personally. There's some that have become a headache that I know them for that I got you.
[00:38:37] Speaker C: Versus you might get a personal vendetta against them.
[00:38:40] Speaker B: They just, they're in an area that just. It's a pain to get into them.
[00:38:44] Speaker D: Especially in your country. Right, that big woods country up there.
[00:38:48] Speaker B: Oh yeah. And I think we should give a shout out to. A lot of.90% of the work we do is on private property and a lot of these people are very interested in what we're doing because if it wasn't for that, I mean, we wouldn't have access. I mean, there's only so much public land that we're actually working on. And especially with trapping. I mean, they're down in the fields and that. On private property, on the farms. Yeah, we got our backyards.
[00:39:08] Speaker A: Yeah, I'll say. I don't have any turkeys for my study area. On game lands. Some of our landlords get really into it and into hosting us and working with the wardens and stuff like that. And that particular property, I mean, those turkeys, they come back to their bird feeders and then they disperse up to the game lands in 3D, actually. And then I give his crew a phone call. I'm like, yo, you want to send me somebody to help me the veg plot? Thanks.
[00:39:32] Speaker D: Well, that's awesome, though, that, like that we're getting that cooperation. I mean, the common. The folks of the Commonwealth, I mean, that's what. That's who provides us a living to, you know, for our jobs and our mission here at the Game Commission. And those private landowners are vital to a lot of things, including this. And, yeah, we definitely need to give them a shout out. And, you know, when you look at, like every year we do a.
I guess the month of July when we're asking the public to tell us where they see turkeys, that information is crucial to the Game Commission. It's crucial to the.
We just need to know what's going on out there. The more of that information that we can get and the help with the public out there, the better that we can let the future. All of us are here for the future. I mean, that's one of the things that.
In the hunting community, it's tough. I talked to a lot of my friends that are in the hunting industry. I said, you got to think about, it's not this season that matters. It's ten years from now. This stuff that we're doing that you're a part of is going to, you know, probably rewrite some history books and that those practices are going to be affected long before. Long when our years are going on this Earth. And that's. That's the cool thing about what the wildlife. State wildlife agencies do in this project, and I'm so excited to. To hear more about it. You know, let's talk about thermal imaging, because I saw somebody had some footage at the PANWTF rendezvous, and I don't know who it is, but if we could get a clip of that just to show maybe on here when this podcast goes live to the public, because that thermal imaging was pretty cool. And do y'all everybody use it?
[00:41:07] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:41:07] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:41:08] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:41:08] Speaker D: So what. What benefit does the thermal imaging have for this study?
[00:41:11] Speaker B: We can see through all that vegetation that your naked eye, you can't see through.
It's wonderful.
The media that you're talking about is actually from the western study area, but I'm pretty sure we all have some. I know I personally don't have any good roosting ones like you saw, but, yeah, I mean, it not only allows us to count turkeys as far as numbers go, a hen poultz or whatever, it's a lot of times we don't want to disturb a hen and her poultz. And so if we can, if that means I can see through grass from farther away, that's where that thermal imaging comes in handy. And even during the daytime, it might not be as effective as a cooler morning or at night, but it's still effective. And so, yeah, it's been wonderful. But it's also great for trapping, locating birds. How close are these birds actually roosting to where we got to sneak into?
[00:41:59] Speaker D: Are you noticing that?
And I've always said this about Pennsylvania, but just. Again, a lot of this is anecdotal, but when you say roosting, do you find that turkeys are roosted in the same areas generally, night after night or.
[00:42:12] Speaker B: Same areas? Yes, but they might be in a totally different tree come morning.
[00:42:15] Speaker D: Right.
[00:42:15] Speaker B: Which, you know, as a hunter, I'm sure, you know, you might think you have a gobbler pinned and then he's in a tree 100 yards away and they just. They're hopping around. But yeah, they tend to use the same areas, but they'll actually. They'll bounce around. If we're talking a ridge, they might not be on the west end of the ridge. They might be on the east end. Then they fluctuate.
[00:42:29] Speaker D: Right, right. There's no sure enough roost tree. You go to Texas and there's one tree, right?
[00:42:33] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, yeah, you can find the water in the trees. You found turkeys, you can.
[00:42:37] Speaker D: You can bet on those roots. But like, I say that all the time, like Pennsylvania, it's so tough because there's lots of options. And what about water? You seen water being crucial. If you. A lot of people don't think about water when they go out, especially turkey hunters. But a turkey needs water every day. Absolutely.
[00:42:53] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:42:54] Speaker D: And, you know, you go down south and, you know, or Oklahoma, and if there's water, there's turkeys roosting there somewhere. If there's turkeys on there, what do you see here, like, as a water source where do most turkeys get that water from creeks, ponds, grass?
[00:43:07] Speaker B: Oh, all of it. But you also got to consider how much water they can get from insects, too. For those areas, you know, down south, where it's limited, but I mean, we've seen them use. Actually, we have video footage of a turkey not drinking water, but swimming across a river. It landed a little too short.
And they can swim.
[00:43:23] Speaker D: I've seen they can.
[00:43:24] Speaker B: It's pretty wild, but. Yeah, I mean, they'll use a puddle. It don't matter if it's muddy or whatever. But in the winter, even maybe you guys haven't noticed it or not, but they'll actually eat snow.
[00:43:33] Speaker D: Really?
[00:43:34] Speaker B: Instead of going to a water source because it's frozen.
[00:43:36] Speaker D: Makes sense.
[00:43:37] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:43:37] Speaker D: So if we're dehydrated somewhere and can't get to water, if we eat bugs, we'll be all right.
[00:43:41] Speaker B: There you go. You know, as far as our digestive system goes, I don't know how that works, but in theory, it sounds like a good idea.
[00:43:47] Speaker D: Anything else that anybody wants to talk about before we talk about? Maybe some of the gobbler stuff that would be interesting to the public or you have any good stories we're into, Anything you want to talk about today.
[00:44:00] Speaker C: I'll touch back on nesting selection for a bit. I mean, at least for us, we have some pretty variable landscapes across management unit 3D. So we got some AG. Got a lot of big forest, fortunate enough for DCNR to cooperate with us as well, to be able to do a lot of the research on there. But we've seen successful nests in wide open woods just base of a tree. We've seen some in some of the thickest cover that you can barely even see through. So, yeah, I just say you would think that they'd pick the thickest spot possible where they have tons of COVID but sometimes that's not always the best spot for them.
[00:44:39] Speaker D: Yeah, it's predictability is tough on that. And I heard you say that you had a hen that she hatched in August and that was her fourth attempt.
[00:44:49] Speaker A: Third. Yeah.
[00:44:49] Speaker D: Okay. Now, would she.
Do we know if she went back to breed with a gobbler? I mean, they can actually store sperm, correct?
[00:44:57] Speaker A: Sure. So they say that with every successful fertilization, a turkey can lay two clutches of eggs successfully. So that means for a third or a fourth attempt that their hormones have to be right for that additional fertilization. And that's part of what they're looking at, too, with some of this. University of Tennessee Multiple paternity University of Pennsylvania stuff is with, you know, with all of that, does the sperm quality decline? Are all those eggs actually fertilized? If they're laid in a second attempt, Stuff like that.
[00:45:27] Speaker D: I gotcha. That's awesome.
[00:45:28] Speaker A: And how that influences the productivity of the hen.
[00:45:32] Speaker D: But you also said that hen flushed the next spring off 17 eggs and she didn't come back.
[00:45:36] Speaker A: Nope, she did not.
[00:45:37] Speaker D: Is that common when they get flushed off the nest that they abandon?
[00:45:40] Speaker B: They're just gonna start, they're just gonna try again somewhere else.
[00:45:42] Speaker D: I got you. Because they feel it was unsuccessful place just one time is all it takes.
[00:45:45] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:45:46] Speaker D: Wow.
[00:45:46] Speaker C: Yeah, I'd say it more depends on how, how much time they have invested in that nest. If it's, if it's early on in the incubation period, they're probably not coming back. If it's within a few days of hatch, they probably would try again. I'm sure I got you sitting on that nest.
[00:46:03] Speaker D: I have another question. So you're walking down a logging road in the north central part of the state and all of a sudden you just. There's an egg laying in the middle of the road. Is it true that Jenny's just walk along and one pops out?
[00:46:17] Speaker B: I mean, I can't say for sure it's true. I think there's, there's some reasoning behind that, but yeah, we've seen it. Or the same reason you'll show up on a nest and find, you know, 25 or 30 eggs in a nest, which is unreal for one turkey because juvenile doesn't know what she's doing. She's essentially parasitizing and dropping her eggs in with that, that adult hen. But yeah, it's, it's not unheard of. I mean, it's. I, for us, it's, I would say it's fairly common. Maybe not for your everyday person in the woods, but yeah, I could see that. And you see that a lot with domestic turkeys too, is you just find random eggs all over these places because the, the jennies don't know what they're doing.
[00:46:51] Speaker D: They have to learn how to be a mom.
[00:46:52] Speaker B: They do. I mean, they do. And that's, you know, goes back into these, these old super hens. The super hen theory, if you're familiar with, you know, in the population, with how many birth, you know, the mortality that we see during nesting and brooding, you have a select few of hens which, how do we study that is beyond me, that are just really good at raising young from year to year. And they're the ones contributing to each generation.
And with that said, you know, we said about talking about something else since we're on the subject of hens and rearing young, bearded hens.
[00:47:23] Speaker D: Okay. Yeah.
[00:47:24] Speaker B: So I personally get hecklers all the time when we're giving presentations and stuff.
The book answer is, you can harvest a bearded hen. The question usually is, should we shoot the bearded hens? Legally, you're allowed to.
Okay.
This is where everybody else needs to chime in. Personally. In our study area, we see hens in almost every flock we go after during trapping season. The ones we put backpack one ons, they're never successful. And that's just something. An observation that we've seen.
[00:47:51] Speaker D: Bearded hens.
[00:47:51] Speaker B: Yes. Really not raising young. Not even, like, being able to hatch eggs. So, no, I'm not saying you should take them out. It's legal. You can. But that's just an observation that we've seen is we haven't had a bearded hen yet that's been successful with raising young.
[00:48:06] Speaker A: Really debunked.
[00:48:07] Speaker B: There you go. That's why I said, you guys chime in, because this is an observation for me. But it's something that comes up all the time, is should we be shooting bearded hens? Legally, you're allowed to.
[00:48:16] Speaker D: Right. And the story's always been that those bearded hens can be moms and have pulse and all that stuff. But it's a great. I mean, observation. That's why we're doing it across the state, too, because we're getting all that from many different train types, many different areas, and that's important to put it all together. A lot of times when folks look at it at the stuff that we do here at the Game Commission, they're thinking their backyard. And we have to look at it as a statewide brush because we're responsible from border to border. And we're so blessed in this state to have such a diverse area. From your area to your area is totally different.
So between all the. What you guys do out there, what is your exact title again?
[00:48:56] Speaker B: You told me wildlife technicians.
[00:48:57] Speaker D: Okay, but.
[00:48:58] Speaker A: And then we're turkey trapping crew leads.
[00:49:00] Speaker D: Okay. So let me ask you this on kind of a personal note. Are you all competitive?
[00:49:05] Speaker B: Oh, very. Absolutely.
[00:49:07] Speaker D: Okay.
[00:49:07] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. We actually were just going back and forth on Friday about this because, you know, he might have a really good trapping season. This has been our best trapping season out of the whole study. And as far as I'm concerned, we've hit all our quotas and we've banded the most amount of birds this year. And so. Yeah. I mean, just little stuff like that.
[00:49:22] Speaker D: You're just rubbing it in a little bit.
[00:49:23] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. But then come, you know, like, you know, nesting or brooding season. I might have three successful. And then they're rubbing it in my face and.
[00:49:29] Speaker D: Yeah, you guys have the good mamas last year.
[00:49:32] Speaker C: We did.
Last year. We had a really good year up in 3D.
[00:49:37] Speaker D: Let's talk about it. Let's talk about a good year. What's a good year? Because. Well, it's important that people understand how tough it is for a turkey to make it. I mean, really, there's so many factors out there. So let's talk about a good year.
[00:49:49] Speaker C: I'd say if.
[00:49:50] Speaker D: Or is that classified information?
[00:49:51] Speaker B: I don't think so.
[00:49:52] Speaker C: Yeah, I don't think it's classified, per se. I'd say a third of the birds are making a successful brood at four weeks, which we deem as successful. That was a phenomenal year.
[00:50:03] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:50:03] Speaker D: So one third, roughly.
[00:50:04] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, we're 15, 60% of them in nesting alone, just from predation or other.
[00:50:10] Speaker D: So let's talk. We talked a little bit about Denny. So talk about how you follow the broods, you know.
[00:50:16] Speaker A: Sure. So after we know that that nest has been left, like the turkey has left the nest. And we know that because I've got that pinger, I have those GPS locations, I could say, yep, she's far enough at the nest. We'll actually go in and we'll check and see how many eggs hatched, if they hatched or if something else happened. I've had some hens. It's the last week of their incubation. I'm like, oh, she's off nest. This is so exciting. And you walk in and then you check some of your other stuff, and it's like, actually, she died. So. Yeah. And then we're going in to look at eggs. And do we do a very thorough vegetation analysis at that nest, as well as in each cardinal direction, a random location so that we have a comparison of what habitat types were available to the hen.
And then after that nesting stuff occurs is when we're following the brood, if she's successful. So at two weeks, and then at four weeks, we'll do our brood count with our thermal imaging and we'll actually play the lost poult call. And the attempt there is to lure that hen with her babies in tow to us wherever we're positioned. And sometimes we're out there with three, four folks, and we're playing it over here, and Then we're, we're playing it over there so we can pin her in, in the right location. Now I know this past year you had said about like a third of your hens were successful and I think I had about, about the same, maybe slightly less. But when we're talking about success, for that nest to be successful, I need one egg to hatch. For that brood to be successful, I need one pull to make it to four weeks. So yeah, I had four or five successful broods out of those 50 or 60% that made it through past June, but four out of those five were with one pulled. Then she's not receptive to that lost pull call because she knows I only have one kid. Who the heck's kid is yelling? So she doesn't come into that. And that's when typically we'll hold off on at two weeks. We won't do a flush count, but we'll actually try and approach the hen and see if we can get eyes on him that way.
[00:52:10] Speaker D: So flush, can they fly at two weeks?
[00:52:12] Speaker A: Yes, like two and a half weeks is when we'll typically start to see them roosting above ground and they're up in the trees or they're on shorter.
[00:52:20] Speaker D: Logs and that's when they're, that's when they're a lot more safe to predator, predators and stuff. When, as soon as they get their feathers. That first two weeks is crucial. That's where the habitat really comes into play too, you know, that they, if they're in the best habitat, their chances of making it are better. And you know, we talk about different habitats, nesting habitat, and you know, we can go on and on and on. But let's talk about probably the most critical point of a turkey's life. Those first two weeks, brooding habitat. I remember studies and hearing things, you know, from the Turkey Federation years ago. And in a perfect world, what would be the perfect habitat for those first two weeks of a turkey's life?
[00:52:54] Speaker B: So let's, let's look first at the size of a hen versus the size of a two week old poult.
[00:52:58] Speaker D: Okay.
[00:52:59] Speaker B: Those poults have to be able to move freely through vegetation, but at the same time they need to be able to get to cover instantly as soon as that hen tells them to. So you need a vegetation that can cover them as well as cover her, but enough that she can see over for predation. And so, you know, going back to prescribed fire a little bit, you know, turkeys are on the fires, they're back in these burned areas real quick. And a lot of that is because one, that new succulent vegetation's coming up. There's a dormant seed bank that's now available and there's bugs, but burnt bugs. And they like, they love fried bugs.
[00:53:34] Speaker D: They don't move but they, that hen.
[00:53:36] Speaker B: Can see great for predation. But there's also enough cover after plants start growing that those poults can move freely but they can get out of harm's way pretty quick.
Whereas, you know, depending how a farmer plants his hay field or something, that hen can't see the poults. I mean they're little ping pong balls. They can't move through it and then she ends up losing them.
[00:53:57] Speaker D: And I heard Dr. Chamberlain talk about like that transition area from when they get to where they rear or hatch their young to get to that brooding area is crucial too because the transition to get there has to be close to where it is.
[00:54:10] Speaker B: Yeah. And then think of the size of the pool. Like Andrew said earlier, he had one hen take her brood less than two weeks, six miles. We, we haven't seen that anywhere else. It's usually not that far. But for them to be able to do that it's, I mean it speaks to the, I guess the quality or the lack of quality of the habitat up there.
[00:54:27] Speaker D: Or maybe she's a super hen.
[00:54:28] Speaker B: She is. She could be a super hen. Some of them are really good at raising young, others are not.
[00:54:33] Speaker D: Do you all have any super hens in your area that you know of?
[00:54:37] Speaker B: I only know of one and that's because we were able to capture her again this year after her transmitter died and put a new one on her. And she's been successful the last two years.
[00:54:44] Speaker D: Wow.
[00:54:45] Speaker B: And so this would be the third year we can see with her, but.
[00:54:47] Speaker D: We need to keep her around.
[00:54:49] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:54:51] Speaker C: I will actually say with that one hand that went that long distance, she ended up traveling through some pretty open woods, crossing a few creeks and rivers and ended up on back on Gamelands 135 and she pretty much hung out on one of the few fields that are back there. There's pretty soft edges.
And another hen that has a transmitter on it fortunately hatch as well. The two of them linked up and pretty much formed a super brood. Oh wow. And they all made it to their four week success.
[00:55:26] Speaker D: So they linked up when they were before four weeks.
[00:55:29] Speaker C: Yep.
[00:55:29] Speaker D: Oh wow.
[00:55:30] Speaker C: Yeah, it was right about right after the two week count that, that we had on both of them.
[00:55:34] Speaker D: I was, I was actually thinking about that earlier because, you know Obviously, as I get to fall turkey season, you see these flocks get together. So you're actually saying they got together that early and is that common?
[00:55:46] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah.
[00:55:47] Speaker B: We see super roots form usually about that month time frame, if not a little before. And then that makes counts really hard because now you got to figure out who belongs to who. But, you know, going back to behaviors, you sit there long enough and watch if, let's say both broods are the same size. If they're. One is clearly two weeks and one's four weeks, you can tell by size, you're going to figure out who mom is for those poults. And that's just, you know, being in the turkey world, which.
[00:56:08] Speaker D: Let's talk about that. How would you. How. What's one thing you would see that would be telltale?
[00:56:12] Speaker B: Telltale is just how the, you know, if the hen makes a call, how those poults respond or which poults respond. I mean, it's. If she makes an alarm call and it's the pulse that know that's mom's voice, all heads are going up. Whereas the others, they might continue feeding if their mother, you know, doesn't seem alarmed at all.
[00:56:32] Speaker D: So we always heard that, like, you know, your mom's voice, you know, your sister's voice. That's true in the turkey world.
[00:56:36] Speaker B: Absolutely, absolutely.
[00:56:37] Speaker D: That's why I always tell if turkey hunters, like, if you hear a hen out there in places you hunt, you want to try to sound like her, because those gobblers know who she is for sure. I mean, I feel pretty strong about that because every one of us, parent or friend, like, we know each other's voice. It has to be like that out there in the wild as well.
Let's talk about the last part of this study a little bit, the gobbler part of it, because I think, you know, so many people have blood squirting out of their eyes this time of year. I mean, they've been up listening. My daughter called me this morning walking her dog. She's, like, freaking out because she's hearing turkeys gobble, which is awesome.
That gobble, it does something to a lot of people. So let's talk about gobblers and what we're looking at, you know, with the gobblers that we have transmitters on and maybe what the future might hold.
[00:57:20] Speaker B: Sure.
[00:57:21] Speaker D: Because I think gobblers are pretty special to you in your future.
[00:57:24] Speaker B: They are. Okay. Yeah. I guess we can get into that then in a little bit. As far as what we've done with Gobblers in this study, again, this was something that came on, what, the second year, it was 2023. We kind of did a pilot study with gobbler transmitters and then really went into this with Penn State as far as looking at crippling loss. But in addition to that, we also get to see the habitats, the. The movements these gobblers are making, how they respond to hunter pressure.
You know, my area comes up a lot because I like to trap game lands when I can. It makes patterning birds easier because nobody else is feeding them. But we did have an instance where we put six gobbler transmitters out on a gamelands in the western portion of 40. I'll say, because I know some hunters that would probably be pretty angry. I start flooding people there.
And last year, during the spring season, not a single one was harvested. Even though we know that game land gets pressured hard. There were birds harvested, just not those. And they're alive going into this year as well. Now, two did die as a result of predation since then. One was that eagle predation I was talking about. The other, I think was ended up being mammalian predation this past winter. But there's still four running around there. And it's neat to see how they respond. Like, as of last week, they were all formed up again together. All four transmitters are mirroring each other.
[00:58:39] Speaker D: They're buddies.
[00:58:40] Speaker B: Whereas, you know, they might pair off or they might go in singles during the hunting season. And just to see the areas they use and how they respond. And it's not like they're going deep out of the way of these hunters. It's just, you know, we say birds are gobbled out. If he don't have a reason to gobble, he might just not be gobbling, but he's right there.
[00:58:57] Speaker D: Right.
[00:58:57] Speaker B: And so we could get into hunting all day as far as, you know, pressure and behaviorally, patience, killing animal, you know, killing birds. But it's been pretty interesting to see that as far as the gobblers go, as far as the crippling loss aspect of it, I know there have been gobblers that were harvested by hunters. They do have some pellets in them that clearly were from before, which is, you know, what we were looking at. You know, how many hunters are taking shots at birds and thinking they didn't kill them, and then we end up finding them dead because the mortality signals going off. But I don't know, it didn't happen often.
[00:59:34] Speaker D: Right.
[00:59:34] Speaker B: As far as that goes, as far as actually finding birds that were lost from crippling So I think one of.
[00:59:39] Speaker D: The things I try to tell turkey hunters, and it's in today's world where our populations, our populations are better now than they've ever been. I mean, I mean, sure, there's peaks and valleys, but like when turkeys hunting first started and you know, I forget what the number in 68, how many spring gobblers they harvested, but it was very low. And you know, back then you hear a turkey gobble, you'd probably hunt them all season because you found one and now there's multiples. Like you call a turkey in and There might be 32 year olds and when you take that shot and they're all bunched up there together, there's a good chance of getting BB's in another turkey. I always tell people to make sure they're good and separated before you squeeze the trigger, you know, I mean, because I think that's important, especially when we look at crippling loss.
[01:00:19] Speaker B: Oh, absolutely.
[01:00:19] Speaker D: You know, I've seen, we, we've all seen them with gangrene. You know, they can get gangrene from fighting each other too, which happens on a daily basis. But that gobbler study is pretty exciting. And let's talk about a little bit about the future of it.
[01:00:31] Speaker B: Yeah, so the data, I'd say for that probably what should be available, 20, 27, that was.
[01:00:37] Speaker D: Are you all trapping gobblers too? Yes, everybody is.
[01:00:40] Speaker B: This year we weren't putting transmitters out. The crippling study went for two years. This year was just our normal banding quota that we do for gobblers every year.
[01:00:48] Speaker D: And that's how we know harvest rates.
[01:00:49] Speaker B: Yes, correct.
[01:00:50] Speaker A: Yeah, so I guess that's important to highlight. I mean, we talked about transmitters and trapping, but statewide every wildlife management unit has a turkey ban quota. So they're doing the same stuff. They're just putting out bands, measuring spur lengths and beard lengths and then releasing those birds on site as well.
[01:01:05] Speaker D: Do you whisper in their ear? Don't go to a hen call. I mean, I think that's what people think, you know, like we're training these turkeys not to come to calls or something. Oh, yeah, you know, but no, we're. I mean, that's how we get our quota. That's how we find out how many turkeys are. I didn't mean to interrupt you. I just wanted to clear that up.
[01:01:20] Speaker B: If anybody else wants to try.
[01:01:21] Speaker A: Yeah, essentially. Essentially the idea is we know how many bands are on the landscape because we've been banding. Banding gobblers for years now.
And then we're able to look at the proportion of those that are harvested and make inferences about what the population is doing on the landscape.
[01:01:36] Speaker D: Technology has definitely changed. I mean, decoys and calls and ammunition and information. I mean, this information we're talking about today has not been out there before. And when the study's completely done, the stuff that we're going to be able to help, you know, the turkeys survive when we're long gone is monumental. I'm so excited to hear that stuff. And. And I know y'all are probably real excited. I mean, it's what drives you every day to get up. And, I mean, if you don't love your job and all three of you showing the passion just in your eyes, and we're talking about it. And I know one thing, it's gotten me more excited for turkey season. So let me ask you this question, and this is getting away from your everyday job. If you had one tip to a turkey hunter out there, I'll start with you. Do you have one tip and something you might have learned? It might help somebody think of it.
Whether it's different, abnormal, or just run of the mill. You hear it every day. You have one.
[01:02:32] Speaker C: I just say patience is key.
I know a lot of people that get pretty antsy, especially when they start hearing the gobble. They want to. They want to go pretty much run and gun.
But, yeah, I'd just say, hold tight. That bird knows where you're at, where you're calling from. They'll probably make their way in eventually.
[01:02:49] Speaker D: Okay, that's a great tip. And one we overlook, and it's been around forever.
[01:02:53] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, get the heck off the trails. Like, guys only want to go, you know, maybe 100 yards off the beaten path. It's like, go. Just keep walking. Just keep walking. Go deeper.
[01:03:03] Speaker D: Okay.
[01:03:04] Speaker B: Yeah, there's. There's a lot of public ground out there. And, you know, a lot of people choose to hunt private over public if they can. But go to those areas where you don't think a turkey is, because I guarantee you there's probably gobblers back there based on what we've tracked and walked up on. And it's. It might look like you should be hunting bighorn sheep. There's a gobbler up there. Really?
[01:03:22] Speaker D: They get in that goat stuff.
[01:03:24] Speaker B: It is unreal rocks. And usually those are the birds you can walk within gun range of. They're just not used to seeing people up there, and so they're trying to figure out what you are. Really.
[01:03:34] Speaker D: That's something that I wouldn't have expected.
[01:03:35] Speaker B: I wouldn't have either till I started working with them, but it's been consistent.
[01:03:40] Speaker D: Well, from everybody at the agency, thank you for what you do every day. And we can't wait to get back here next April and talk about this again. And we're just going to keep going for the stars. And, you know, when you wake up and love what you do, it's not a job. I mean, that's the coolest thing about working for the Game Commission. And we are trying to make things better, trying to learn things, and just trying to pave the way forward for the future. But from everybody at the Game Commission, thank you for what you do every day.
