Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: We have ranges on 41 different game lands. Currently we have 30 rifle ranges, 16 archery ranges and then 19 handguns, eight pattering stations and then two clay bird areas.
[00:00:12] Speaker B: You go to one of our ranges, you go to a local sportsman's club on the weekend at a sporting. Every time a gun goes off, that's dollars for conservation somewhere across this country. Because even if someone's not a hunter and they just enjoy shooting trap or skied or just shooting bullseyes with.22s, it doesn't matter what it is. It's supporting conservation, supporting wildlife, and supporting things that are going to be here when we're going.
[00:00:32] Speaker C: The number of arrows you shoot isn't always going to make you a better archer, because I shot 100 arrows today versus 15 arrows. And when you really start to figure out your form and what the process is of releasing an arrow the same each time, doing it the right way 40 times is way better than doing it the wrong way a hundred times.
[00:00:58] Speaker B: Hello and welcome to Call the Outdoors the podcast of the Pennsylvania Game Commission. You know, last month in August was National Shooting Sports Month, but obviously we had some big news to bring to you with the governor signing the Sunday hunting bill. And we're all excited for this fall hunting season, but we're going to bring in our shooting sports team. We're going to talk about all things shooting sports that happen here in Pennsylvania. It's so important to the Game Commission, so important to conservation when you look at the shooting sports side of things. So we're going to get right to it. We're going to talk about all things shooting here on the outdoors. And it's hard to believe it's September already. And, you know, obviously last month we had some big news last month in August that we had to share with, with Sunday hunting when the, with the governor signing the bill to allow Sundays. And, and that was Shooting Sports Month in August, but we're bringing Shooting Sports Month back here in September. And welcome to Call the Outdoors the, the podcast of the Pennsylvania Game Commission. We got two great guests today and, and they lead our, our shooting sports division.
You know, all of the efforts that are done here at the Game Commission. And go ahead and introduce yourself, guys. Start down there with you, Todd.
[00:02:03] Speaker C: My name is Todd Holmes. I'm the shooting sports division chief here at the Pennsylvania Game Commission. And I've been with the agency for, I think, 11 years now.
[00:02:11] Speaker B: And Todd always looks grumpy. He's really happy, I promise you.
[00:02:14] Speaker C: I'm sorry, my face is just this way.
[00:02:17] Speaker A: And I'm Luke Johnson. I'm also in our shooting sports division. I'm our range management coordinator here for the agency. A relatively new position here at the agency. So I've been here for about a year and a half now.
[00:02:27] Speaker B: Let's, let's get deeper than that. Todd, you know, talk about how you grew up and, and you know, obviously archery is pretty close to your heart and you know, really why you're here.
[00:02:36] Speaker C: Well, my dad.
[00:02:37] Speaker B: Your path to here. Let's talk.
[00:02:39] Speaker C: Yeah, it's been a long one I guess, but my path to getting here. I kind of started to shoot a bow as a five year old kid. My dad took me to a local archery club. They did like an intro to archery class. I think I was five, shooting an old bear compound round wheels with fiberglass arrows just kind of flinging them and kind of fell in love with archery and actually was pretty good at it as a kid.
So my dad and mom supported me doing some competition.
I joined the IBO.
I really like 3D archery.
So we did the, the IBO Triple Crown and the world Championships and I competed in that until roughly when I went to college in 2000 or 99.
Then I was a baseball player. So archery kind of took a back seat. But obviously hunted all the way through.
Really enjoyed archery hunting with my dad. My family is really big into archery.
My grandfather was a hunter ed instructor. He had four boys. I think there's like 30 some members of my family that shoot bow, including my grandmother.
We attend the Pennsylvania Bow Hunters Festival every year.
[00:03:42] Speaker B: That's a family tradition for you.
[00:03:43] Speaker C: Yeah, I think it's been 30 some years I've been going.
My grandparents have been there since the very first one.
So I don't, I don't even know how many years we've been attending, but it's a long time.
So we all enjoy shooting traditional and compound bows. And Now I have two boys, they're 10 and 13.
They've been hunting since they've been little squirts and they've hunted with crossbows. And probably one of my favorite memories just from this year to share something quick is my oldest boy who was 12 last year, shot his first buck with a longbow last year.
So cool accomplishment for anybody, let alone a 12 year old. And he's, he's kind of a chip off the old block with the archery stuff so. But yeah, I ended up getting a job here at the Game Commission through luck really. One of my co workers mentioned there was an opening for national Archery in the schools program. Coordinator.
That was 11 or 12 years ago.
I applied. Obviously I have a love for archery and everything about it. And I got hired here and I ran that program for 10 years. And things have really taken off with shooting sports and what we were doing with our ranges and the archery in the schools program and explore bow hunting programs all kind of really grown tremendously since I started. And so for a one guy band, it kind of got to be too much. So I was fortunate enough now we have a division and in that division I have three employees, of which Luke is one. And he's doing some really cool stuff here with some of our new grants and programs as well.
[00:05:11] Speaker B: And we're going to talk a lot about that today because sometimes it's misunderstood, you know, how important shootings, sports is to conservation. But you know, I just want to throw one in on, on your boys. I got the chance to hunt with you and your youngest son this spring and it was pretty cool. And I mean, the best and worst part of the day is, you know, that it rained pretty much all morning. We finally got on a turkey, called him in and it was, it was after hours and gobblers came in, came to the decoys, and I look over and, and your son is in tears and telling us how much it sucks that we have to stop at noon. So, I mean, that was a good day. I mean it was a great day. Thanks for letting me tag along on that one.
[00:05:45] Speaker C: Yeah, it'll be one he'll never forget. I'm sure he always, he's mentioned it a few times since May, like, well, I wish I could have got that turkey. I'm like, I know, I wish too, buddy. I think we all wish that, that day.
[00:05:57] Speaker B: But it's pretty, it's pretty cool to watch the brotherhood of your two kids. But also they're competitive. I mean, and as they grow older, they'll always be like that. And it's just one of those things that from the outside, it's cool to watch probably inside it gets a little bit hairy, it's heated sometimes.
[00:06:12] Speaker C: Yeah, they go at it.
You know, we like to be competitive in just about everything.
They probably get that from me somewhat, but I think that in the end it's a good thing for them and, you know, hopefully that'll transpire to them working harder down the road and maybe getting a job that they enjoy truly instead, you know, something else. So.
[00:06:31] Speaker B: So how about you, Luke? We've, I mean, we found you on the street out here with a sign, yeah, help wanted.
[00:06:36] Speaker A: I, I came in for the help wanted sign.
[00:06:38] Speaker B: Real work for bullets.
[00:06:39] Speaker A: Yep, exactly. So it's awesome working with Todd. Todd having his archery background and I kind of took the other side of the shooting sports path. I came up through the side of rifle competitive rifle shooting. So from a very young age I started at 9 years old, I started shooting a discipline called NRA silhouette. It's all offhand shooting steel targets, 22 center fire rifles, air rifles. Really awesome program to get the kids started in. Teaches very great fundamental for hunting as well, especially taking freehand shots.
I'm a third generation hunter, my grandfather, my dad, myself and getting ready to start the fourth generation here with the little one that we had in January. So super excited about that, but started shooting that and then I was a freshman in high school and a friend of mine looked at me and said hey, do you realize that you can go to college to shoot? And I said no, what do I got to do? And they're like well if you watch the Olympics. I was like yeah. And they're like well there's a junior rifle club row local to Harrisburg, Palmyre Sportsman's Club. They have a great program. Why don't you go down, talk to the coach down there and they'll get you set up. I was like, okay.
So I go down, start talking with everybody and I'm like, wow, this is pretty cool. I can go to college and get a scholarship and do all this fun stuff. So I started competing and had a lot of success very early.
Got recruited to Alaska Fairbanks, which was really cool.
I was originally going to go to University of Kentucky. And then the hunter in me, Dan did a recruiting trick that worked on him. I said nah, I'm not really going to come, I don't want to come. And he goes all right, well I'll let you know. I'll let you go. About two weeks later, get an email. There's Dan behind a world class caribou and says hey, just want to know what you're missing, what you could possibly be missing in Alaska. Emailed back and said when can I be on a plane to Fairbanks? That Thursday I went on my recruiting trip and never looked back. So went up to Alaska, competed four years there, a couple time All American NCAA runner up and got a degree in natural resource management. So I love this job. I get to work for the agency as managing our resources and still get to shoot and help out with the shooting resources, which is absolutely incredible. Still, I don't shoot internationally anymore. I don't shoot the three piece side of Things, But I'm still very active with that community helping out.
But if it as like Todd likes to say, it's a big as bang or twang, I'm into it. So.
[00:08:55] Speaker B: That's right. And that's what we want to talk about when we talk about shooting sports. And, you know, we're just knocking out of the gate, you know, we got ammunition sitting here. Let's talk about the Pittman Robertson act and how important that is, not just here in Pennsylvania, but across the country. You know, a lot of folks, it's. It's a. It's a revenue stream for us here at the Game Commission. It's a revenue stream for conservation across the country. So hit on that real quick, Todd, if you will.
[00:09:17] Speaker C: Yeah, so a lot of people don't realize that the Pittman Robertson act was put in Place in 1937.
It was kind of monumental legislation then for what it provided. I don't think people realized really how big of an effect it would have over the long term.
But essentially there's an 11% federal excise tax placed on all firearms, ammunition, archery equipment that's collected by the federal government each year.
That money goes into a giant pot, and it's allocated to the states based on a formula of the state's land mass, size and the number of hunting licenses that they sell each year. So Pennsylvania has a fair amount of hunters. I think we're, you know, 900,000 ish somewhere each year. Also a fairly sizable state for land mass.
So I think this past year our apportionment was like $33 million our state received through Pittman Robertson funds just in the past year.
And that money each year goes to many different things. Not just shooting sports, it goes to habitat management.
It also goes into land acquisition, it can go into hunter education, shooter education, recruitment, retention, reactivation of hunters, disease management, disease study, population, you know, studies, stuff like that. All of those funds get divvied up amongst our agency each year and used in many different manner. So it's really been a great thing for our agency because, you know, yes, there's other ways we make revenue, but this one's pretty steady and it doesn't fluctuate a whole lot because, you know, a lot of people are still out there shooting and hunting each year. And that's what's driving that fund.
[00:10:53] Speaker B: Yeah, you go to one of our ranges, you go to a local sportsman's club on the weekend at a sporting, every time the gun goes off, that's dollars for conservation somewhere across this country. And you know, I look, you know, we all can pay respects to our forefathers that were smart enough to get that put in place, you know, because even if someone's not a hunter and they just enjoy shooting trap or skeet or just shooting bullseyes with 22s, it doesn't matter what it is. It's supporting conservation, supporting wildlife, and supporting things that are going to be here when we're gone. So, I mean, we look at it.
[00:11:24] Speaker A: That way for sure, and it's cool to see for some research that NSSF National Shooting Sports foundation does in 2012. In 2012, we had 43.5 million recreational shooters. And then in 2022, it grew to 63.5 million shooters. So we're seeing a 56% increase, and it's continually growing. So it's awesome to see that recreational shootings continue to grow for conservation, you.
[00:11:51] Speaker B: Know, and we're going to talk about this a little bit more, but, you know, you guys, anybody, myself included, like every week you're shooting a bow or a gun somewhere. I mean, that's as like that's part of it. I mean, getting ready for archery season, you know, and you shoot your bow and, you know, the first time you're a little rusty and you get better and better every day. And I'm sure your family shoots pretty much. I know those boys are shooting at least a BB gun every day.
[00:12:14] Speaker C: Yeah, they keep us hopping, I mean, between all the different things that they're shooting, between air gun, crossbow, longbow, compound rifle, slingshot, I mean, you name it, they're. They're constantly losing arrows and hitting the steel targets out in the yard. And so they keep us busy. But, you know, and that when you sit there and you think about how much you spend just as an individual each year on some of that stuff, you know, some of the things I don't really think about, like that funds pr. Like, I bought a new set of bowstring and cables last week. You know, that's all going towards it, which I didn't. You would never think that that's something that's helping fund our agency, but all of that does. And a cool stat that I found out last year is that arrows specifically have a certain amount for each shaft that's sold that goes towards pr. And I think last year it changes annually the number, but it was 62 cents per arrow goes into PR. So if you think just about the number of arrows that we buy in Pennsylvania each year, like, that's a lot of money that goes towards pr.
[00:13:19] Speaker B: I mean, just look at our bow hunter numbers nowadays. You know, when. When crossbows became legal, you know, not too long ago, really, when you look at the big picture. But I think we're at, like, 350 north of 350,000 archers that take to the woods every year. That's. That's incredible. That's leading the nation as well.
[00:13:36] Speaker C: I mean, and that's just our hunters. That's not even counting our recreational archers do, you know, So I know Pennsylvania is a leader for, you know, the ibo, and we have Lancaster Archery with the Lancaster Archery Training Facility there for Olympic athletes and whatnot. And Casey's doing great things with the Olympic team. And so there's a lot of folks that are shooting arrows every year in Pennsylvania.
[00:14:00] Speaker B: There's not a weekend that goes by you can't go shoot a 3D shoot somewhere in the state. You know, you look at that and, you know, we host some big events like IBO and tac, the Total Archery Challenge. You know, that brings people from across the country.
[00:14:12] Speaker C: Yep. S3DA has really blown up in the last three or four years in Pennsylvania as well, which is bringing new kids into the sport of 3D archery as well.
[00:14:19] Speaker B: What's that stand for?
[00:14:20] Speaker C: SD Scholastic 3D Archery.
[00:14:22] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, I see a lot of. There's some local kids in our county, Perry county, that are doing real well in that as well. You know, let's talk about our shooting ranges, public shooting ranges. You know, the initiative was made years ago to, you know, we saw this need for folks to go out there and. And enjoy shooting sports, whether it's zeroing your rifle or practicing or whatever it is. And. And that expansion is, you know, a lot of that has happened in the last four or five years, you know, under. Under your direction. Todd. Let's just talk about where we were, where we're heading.
[00:14:51] Speaker C: Sure. I mean, when I came to the agency in 2014, we had one archery range that was open to the public.
Really two, but. Really? Yeah. One. We have one behind our headquarters, 1.4. Yeah, that was kind of smaller, but we had one in Scotia. I got up to visit it. I'd never been there before, and it was really just a couple bag targets set out. And all the bag targets were one distance, a static line. And then if you want to shoot 20 or 30 or 40 yards, you had to stagger where you're standing, which, if you shot on a public range before, creates an unsafe situation. If somebody wants to shoot at 20 and 40, you can't really do that safely.
Plus the, the range is in pretty rough shape. You know, the bag targets are falling apart, half of them are on the ground.
So just pretty rough for an archer, you know. And we didn't have any other offerings for anybody as far as a public range went.
So I worked with some of our engineering department, we put together our heads and came up with a range design, worked with the ata, used some of their range building skills.
[00:15:52] Speaker B: Archer trade association.
[00:15:54] Speaker C: Yes. Yep. And they were super helpful in helping us kind of get up and running the first year and developing a range design that would be effective for the public.
So we built our first one, which was in the southeast region.
We weren't sure how heavy it was going to get used, you know, so we kind of put it out there, told the public through a social media post, hey, we have this new archery range, go check it out. And within six months our targets were shot out completely.
So we learned that one, people wanted it, they were going to use it, and two, that our targets that we had weren't going to work for, you know, the amount of use they were seeing. So over the last three to four years, we've changed our target design.
The one we have now I think is a really good one.
It's held up extremely well. We have some of those that have been out there for three years now and they're still in use.
Our ranges are handicap accessible. They have concrete walkways that go from the shooting line to each of the distances. Most of our ranges have 10, 20, 30, 40 and 50 yard targets.
Our target lines are all covered with a roof. There's bow hangers, just a really user friendly system that anybody can pull up any day, go out, shoot their bow. Our archery ranges are free. They do not require range permit or a hunting license to use them, which is also another benefit.
[00:17:15] Speaker B: Anybody can shoot them.
[00:17:16] Speaker C: Yep, anybody can go use it. So if you bought it or you got a new bow for your birthday or for Christmas and you're like, you know, I don't know where to go. You can go to any one of our ranges and shoot sight your bow in. Those 10 yard targets are 4 foot by 4 foot. So you should be able to hit one of those to start and get it dialed in and then work your way up. So but now we have, I think we're right around 14 or 15, 16 archery ranges. 16, okay. We're adding more every day, so sometimes it's hard to keep tabs on that. But we have 16 archery ranges now across the state. All of them are getting Used heavily.
Excuse me. And we're seeing a ton of people report back to us that they like our ranges.
We have other states, we have other clubs looking to us for our design and they realize how well we kind of put it together and how it's worked and people really enjoy using it.
[00:18:09] Speaker B: Yeah, they're sharp and they're fun to shoot at. I mean and just like you said, they're so user friendly and you know, again, we see the demand out there. We want you to, we want you to fire ours and wants to fire ammunition down there. We're going to talk about that on your side, Luke, with, with our, you know, public shooting ranges on the firearms side of things.
And I don't know where we're we're at today because like Todd said, that number changes drastically and some of the offerings that we have out there for the public.
[00:18:35] Speaker A: Yeah, it's pretty cool. So we have ranges on 41 different game lands. Currently we have 30 rifle ranges, 16 archery ranges and handguns, eight pattering stations and then two clay bird areas. So it's 41 game lands. Some game lands offer multiple offerings. So if you look at our Scotia range, which is up near State College, State Game Lands 176 or State Game Lands 205, we call those our complexes because they offer everything. So you can go to one of those ranges and sight in your rifle, shoot your pistol, shoot clay birds if you want, pattern your shotgun and shoot archery, which is pretty cool. Most of our ranges out there, most areas are rifle. They'll have a rifle range within probably 30 to 60 minutes from you. And we're kind of getting there. Same with the archery as we're seeing that as well, but are in same thing too. That was what, about three, four years ago you came up with the design. We redid our handgun ranges because previously our handgun ranges were 25 yard. And we realized we're like, well that's kind of odd. Our handgun ranges aren't getting used as much. So we kind of did some questioning and come and we resigned our handgun ranges and now they're 7 and 10 yards.
So we're seeing a lot more use out of that for people to go out recreationally and practice with their handguns at 7 and 10 yards.
[00:19:51] Speaker C: And I mean the thing to keep in mind is when our original ranges were built, many of them were designed specifically for hunters. You know, the recreational shooting side of things has really ramped up here in the last 10 to 15 years. So when the initial ranges were built, they were designed for A pistol range, if somebody was going to hunt with a pistol, which is why you had a 25 yard or 50 yard pistol range.
Now when you go to most ranges, most of the people there that are shooting pistols for concealed carry or personal protection practice things like that, which you don't want to practice that at 25 and 50 yards. So that's where you're seeing the shift in the demographic where the amount of people that are shooting handguns want that 7 to 10 yard target.
[00:20:28] Speaker B: That was a good move.
[00:20:29] Speaker A: And something else new and exciting for us in our division as well on the firearm side of things is at our March board of Commissioners meeting, it was recently approved that we were allowed to start placing steel targets out on our ranges where before it was paper only or in claybird designated areas. So we're going to get ready here and pilot at some ranges of putting some steel out for rifle and handgun users.
[00:20:51] Speaker B: That's pretty cool. I mean, that's going to be fun. And that's going to allow us to expand to maybe some longer distance in the future too, right?
[00:20:56] Speaker A: Yep, that's in, that's in the game plans as well as looking at some possible long range, some long range sites right now currently we have some 200 and some 300 yard ranges, but we're looking at expanding the 5 and possibly longer 500 yards and longer.
[00:21:09] Speaker B: I see a competitive field day in our futures when there's long range, long rangers get built.
[00:21:15] Speaker C: That's right.
[00:21:16] Speaker B: Luke's on my team.
[00:21:17] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:21:19] Speaker C: The steel is really a cool opportunity for us. If you've never shot steel before, it's. I don't know, there's something about it just makes shooting more enjoyable. That audible tang. You get the instant gratification of hitting the target.
But also as far as an agency standpoint, it really helps us remain safer.
We're having less time downrange for folks. So the range is open for longer periods of time. There isn't as much time spent walking back and forth.
You don't have the mess of the paper targets and the wood backers getting destroyed and having to be replaced and ranges being closed for maintenance and things like that. So we're really hopeful this will be a positive thing for us and keep our ranges open more.
And I think people will shoot steel more. I know that I shoot a lot of rounds at the house at our steel targets just because it's fun to shoot.
[00:22:03] Speaker B: Sure. You know, one thing a lot of folks don't realize too, you know, we did those ranges, we just don't, like, fly in and plop them out anywhere. There's so much consideration in the safety and things like that. If you want to just talk about, like, when we. When we are looking at a new site for firearms in particular, like, there's a lot of science that goes into where we put a firearms range.
[00:22:21] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, we've done a good job over the last 10 years of renovating a lot of our ranges. We've moved some of them. We've built higher berms, we've tried to fit everything to the national standard that the NRA puts out for range safety as far as berm heights and widths and sound abatement and things like that. So our engineers have done a great job over the last 15 years of kind of getting our ranges, you know, or keeping our ranges up to speed with the specs and safety standards.
And, you know, overall, when we look at putting a new range in or renovating a range, they're all things that we consider, you know, is there a better location? How can we improve the access to this range? We have a range right now in Dolphin county that's been there for a long time. The parking lot is split on one side of a busy highway and the range is on another. Not ideal, you know, for people carrying gun cases and things like that and sandbags and carrying them up a hill. So when we looked at renovating that range, we're like, you know what? We have a lot better site a couple miles down the range that would be, you know, more access or easily accessed by the public. And so we're going to. We're going to move the range because it's going to benefit the users, it's going to create a safer place for people to go, and hopefully, you know, it gets used more because of it. So all of those things get taken into account each time that we look at either renovating or building a new range in the location. How far we are from population centers, you know, how much use is it going to get? How many, you know, stations do we need at that particular range? The types of, you know, disciplines we can offer, whether we can put a complex in or if it's just going to be a rifle range or just an archery range, things like that. So.
[00:23:56] Speaker B: Yeah, and Luke, you've been. You've shot in ranges all over the country. When you look at our. Our public range system, it's pretty cool.
[00:24:02] Speaker A: I mean, ours is top tier. When we have some other range coordinator meetings across the. Across the US and it's really awesome. Like other states are looking at us and like, how do you guys do that? What are your guys design plans? So, and it's. And it's a cooperative thing. Like we're definitely open book with anybody. We help them out to help become better because we're all in this goal together is to recruit more shooters and retain.
[00:24:23] Speaker B: So and it's just like, you know, we're lucky to live in this state where our, you know, forefathers are smart enough to purchase land. You know, the game land system is, you know, obviously for wildlife is number one. And when those ranges are put in there, you know, they're looking at the lowest invasive places to put these ranges when you know the effect on wildlife for sure.
[00:24:42] Speaker C: Yeah. And one of the things that the archery ranges have been great for is just that. So we don't obviously want to take prime habitat from hunting to put it in our right for archery range. But a lot of the locations that we've put our archery ranges are you know, essentially really close to a road or maybe a building where it's a safety zone. So an archery range is kind of a great thing. They're quiet, they're not messy, and you can put them in a smaller spot than you can a rifle or pistol range. So the archery ranges have really kind of fit into these little cool areas that you probably don't want to hunt or people aren't going to hunt because you're right next to a road or, you know, maybe a gamelands maintenance building or something like that. And those archery ranges feel in there real nice.
[00:25:23] Speaker B: But if you're a big old buck that's trying to make it through the season, sometimes that might be the best place to live is right on that archery range fence.
[00:25:29] Speaker C: Yep. We just talked about that yesterday in the office how some of these bigger deer just lay behind people's cabins or camps. And you know, people probably walk by them all the time and don't realize it.
[00:25:38] Speaker B: They don't get that they don't have that many birthdays.
[00:25:40] Speaker A: By being dumb for sure and carrying on with Todd's. With Todd's talking about putting archery ranges in cool areas. This year coming online, we have two archery ranges going into 400 areas. So what a 400 area is, it's a cooperative agreement with us and like a local municipality or another government agency where we'll go in and we're actually constructing two archery ranges, one at Bear Swamp park and Wayne Group Park. So they'll be coming southeast region. Southeast region. So they're going to be. They're going to be pretty cool. We're super excited to get those online here.
[00:26:11] Speaker B: And one. I know one of those, like, you're shooting archery, like, real close to metropolitan area. I mean.
[00:26:16] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:26:16] Speaker B: And, yeah, that's awesome.
[00:26:18] Speaker C: The 400 area stuff is really great for us because we don't own game lands everywhere. And a lot of times our game lands are more rural areas and bigger tracks. And so some of these smaller parcels that municipalities or, you know, county parks own, they might own 70 or 100 acres somewhere that's really close to a population center. They're not really doing anything with it. And we can put a small footprint archery range in there and allow access to that entire population center to come shoot a bow. And it's just a cool partnership that we have, you know, kind of figured out here in the last four or five years. Took a little while to work through that stuff.
But with these first two coming online, I think it's going to be a home run for us moving forward to access, you know, some areas where we don't own game lands to get some archery ranges built in, some really neat.
[00:27:04] Speaker B: Unique areas, you know, and you look at archery and, you know, you're in your division, you have the national Archery in schools program. And what's amazing to me is it's one of those shooting activities. I mean, even if you're not going to be a hunter, you look at the support and conservation. But, you know, shooting a bow is fun. It's just to go out there and fling some arrows. You know, I know like Corey Galvis a couple years ago, who's, you know, a world champion, you know, traditional shooter, holds number, I think two or three in. In that big buck he killed the other year, he what he told me stuck, and it kind of gives me goosebumps. He goes, I shoot an arrow, at least an arrow every day. I've got to. It's an addiction of mine. Like, I got to watch that arrow fly. And, you know, when you look at how you traditional shooters shoot, you know, you got to do that to stay on.
But his is like going to the gym or eating dinner. Like, he's got to shoot that arrow every day. And when you look at archery, even if you're not going to hunt, I mean, archery is a great discipline when you look at it or talk about the NASP just a little bit.
[00:28:06] Speaker C: Yeah. So NASS stands for National Archery in the Schools program.
It came to Pennsylvania here in 2011. I believe I always get that wrong. Kayla corrects me she's our coordinator, but I think it's 2011.
And when it started here, it was, it was run just by a volunteer per se, and he was just excited about getting kids involved in archery and he did a great job for the first year that he had it. And the, the NASP organization is a national one. It started in Kentucky, but it grew very quickly and other states were like, hey, we want to do this.
So instead of being Kentucky Archery in the schools, it changed the national.
So when that happened, a lot of the DNR agencies across the state kind of took it over because you could use those PR funds to use to grow the program.
And so the game Commission took it over then and we kind of just started from square one, offering grants to schools for, you know, a portion of their equipment costs. We would train them, you know, their teachers for free. And really what it does is it offers an archery curriculum for 4th through 12th grade students to learn how to shoot a bow safely inside a school setting.
So 99% of the shooting practice takes place inside a gym and they'll shoot 10 and 15 meters in there. They can shoot competitively if they choose to. A lot of schools just shoot in gym class and have fun with it and kids learn the basics and that's okay, but sometimes you'll have a kid or two that really excels and they say, hey, when we do an archery again, and they're like, ah, not till next year. And they're like, well, that's too long. Maybe some of the Corey Galvis type stuff where, you know, they just, when you do it once, you're like, I gotta do it again. You know, it's just too much fun.
So then what'll happen is you'll get a team that forms and an after school club and then those kids will practice. And then we started competing. Then we held a state tournament my first year here, actually my first week that I started with the agency year was when our tournament was being held, which was. I kind of got thrown into the fire pretty quick there with that. But we were at Penn State then.
[00:30:09] Speaker B: And you've done that to a couple other directors after you.
[00:30:12] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah.
[00:30:13] Speaker A: It's not, it's not mine now, but.
[00:30:14] Speaker B: Like, if you're coming to work for us, you're going to start the week before the national.
[00:30:16] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, it's, it's kind of like you're going to learn, you're going to learn quick because there's a lot going on those leak, those weeks leading up to it. But our tournament here in our state has grown.
I think the first one I went to was around 800. We're 1200 now. We've actually had to put in state qualifiers now because it was just kind of a first come first serve. But we couldn't fit everybody and I didn't want to exclude an archer who deserved to be there. So kids now have to shoot state qualifiers and then their state qualifying scores will either guarantee them a spot at our state tournament or there is a kind of open free for all on the Tier 2 qualifying registration as well. So even if you're not in the top so many schools or individuals, you can still come potentially if you're quick on the mouse.
[00:31:07] Speaker B: Sure.
[00:31:08] Speaker C: So, but our tournament's been a great thing. We've given away, I think over a hundred thousand dollars in scholarships now to students in Pennsylvania to further their education through the NASS program.
It's teaching a life skill. Like as you mentioned, shooting a bow is something that I learned when I was five.
My grandmother shot her bow, I think Till she was 85 years old, you know, so it's something that you can carry with you. It's something that's fun for everyone. It's a family thing that you can get everybody involved with.
And you know, who doesn't like washing an arrow, fly through there, you know. So NASP has been a great thing. It's continuing to grow. I think we're over 340 schools here in Pennsylvania and when you run some of the numbers, it's kind of crazy the amount of kids that participate.
So last year is over 115,000 kids in Pennsylvania participated in the NASS program in a school setting, which is a crazy number to throw out there. But it's working. Kids are enjoying it and you know, it's a great opportunity for them to get involved in a sport that they may not have had an option for.
[00:32:11] Speaker B: And the other number of that I've gotten excited when I've heard it is the amount of that hundred and some thousand that actually buy a hunting license.
That number's pretty steep too.
[00:32:20] Speaker C: Yeah. NASP ran a national survey and it came back was like almost 19% of NASP archers bought a license because they got involved with the NAS program. So they weren't hunters before, their parents weren't hunters, but they bought a hunting license simply because the, the NASS program introduced them to the sport of archery and they had an interest in competing or not competing, but hunting.
[00:32:42] Speaker B: Yeah, you look at NASP and you know, there's a whole nother side that we're, you know, obviously why we brought Luke on is that scholastic firearms stuff like you and I. Luke went to that scholastic clay league shoot with. I mean, there was a thousand kids shooting trap all day long. It was crazy just to smell the gunpowder and hear the, you know, the shooting that was going on and you know, just like yourself, there was a pathway to college and a lot of folks don't realize the scholastic sports of shooting sports and just, you know, hit on some of that, if you will.
[00:33:09] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. That's so that's what I love about. So the event we were at Elysberg, it was the USA Clay League State championship.
They had over a thousand kids shooting, which was really cool. In July, there was an event out in Ohio, the scholastic clay target program.
There's roughly 7 to 8,000 kids in a week out in this range complex in Ohio, Cardinals shooting center. And they'll shoot trap, skeet and sporting clays, which is incredible.
[00:33:35] Speaker B: And I saw some kids out there on the range with, you know, their age 70. You don't, you know, they don't need a parazzi. Now there were some, there were some over and unders that were sharp, but I mean everybody was shooting.
[00:33:45] Speaker A: One of my, one of my favorite memories was I was out working event at Cardinal a few years ago and there was, there was a younger kid from Nebraska and he was maybe the. His 870 was taller than he was old 870, 32 inch barrel. And he's out shooting doubles trap and I mean he is busting them and smiling from ear to ear and he is kicking kids, kicking kids butts, shooting parazis, Krie govs and Brownings like it was just so cool. It doesn't matter, doesn't matter how. It's, it's just awesome. It's truly incredible to see kids take that next step. And also with the scholastic, there's a scholastic handgun program as well. Well, they'll shoot like a steel challenge, stuff like that as well. And then you have junior rifle, BB gun programs and then archery as well.
[00:34:26] Speaker B: Awesome. We're looking forward to that expansion. But let's just circle back to our shooting ranges, our public ranges. And you know, you said earlier that you know, if you're shooting in the or in the archery range, it's free. You don't need a license or permit. Let's talk about the firearms side and how that works.
[00:34:40] Speaker C: Sure. So to use the firearms ranges here in our state, you do need to have a hunting license or a range permit, right? Either or will work we changed some of the way that the range permit works here in the last couple of years. Used to be, I think it ended on June 30 and started on July 1. You had to renew it each year now when you buy one. So you buy one today, it's good until today, next year, essentially, which is kind of nice.
[00:35:05] Speaker B: And that digital option, you can buy it and have it on your phone and you're good to go. But if you don't have a range permit or a hunt license, one of our guys in green is going to give you a citation.
[00:35:13] Speaker C: Yep. So you're. It's your responsibility to know the range rules and regulations, and, you know, that's one of them. Obviously, you have to have a permit if you're using a firearms or shotgun range.
Whenever you do, you know, get on the website, it's super easy to get the range permit. You know, it takes maybe a couple minutes and you're in and out of there. So say that you have some friends come in, they're visiting, like, hey, want to go to the range? You are allowed to take a guest with you if you have a permit, or if they want to buy their own, they can do it in a couple minutes.
So it's. It's pretty seamless. So sometimes buying a hunting license is just as easy now because we're online as well with that.
So depending on if you plan on hunting or if you just want to, you know, go shoot the range, you got both of those options available to you.
[00:35:56] Speaker B: So, yeah, you know, we talked about a lot of our, you know, public offerings, but when you look at our state, we're so lucky to have over, I think, 700 local sportsman's clubs throughout the state and, you know, in all kinds of disciplines. And, I mean, just going to some of those meetings is cool, but, like, we've. We've actually developed a program. We're partnering with a lot of these clubs and developing that relationship further with our agency for the future of hunting, for the future of conservation, for the future of sporting or sporting shooting sports. So, you know, just hit on that a little bit. Luke, where you've been the last two years, you've been really busy with this program.
[00:36:27] Speaker A: Yeah, it's been. It's been a fun two years getting partnerships established with our local sportsman's club that we have around the state. And Matt's correct, we have roughly over 700. And it's great to do these partnerships with them with a grant to do localized range improvements, because, like what Todd said earlier, we're we can't have ranges all over the state. So it's nice to be able to partner and help sportsman's clubs that might have aging membership or aging facilities be able to help revolution, reamp them, revitalize them so they can keep hosting more public events, Hunter trapper education classes, stuff like that. So it's been fun the past two years being able to see some really awesome projects that we might not be able to do as an agency, but be able to help these clubs do.
So if you're a member at a sportsman's club, feel free to reach out to myself or Todd or anybody in the agency and they can get you pointed in the right direction.
[00:37:21] Speaker B: Right. And it's so important, you know, all of us sitting here today, everybody out there that's listening, you know, especially hunters. You know, it's our job to pass it on to this next generation. And the same is with shooting sports. And that's one of the things where the shooting range improvement program is helping out. Like you said, a lot of these clubs are in dire need of some improvements and we see that and we want to be your partner. We want to be there to help and we need you to go out there and, you know, and open public events and introduce new people to shooting whole hunter trapper education classes. And I mean, it's our mission, it's our job to promote this from here on out. But you know, before we leave, I got, I gotta, we're gonna get down and dirty in some, some of this stuff that I think is important as we look at, you know, SEPA here in September and you know, in special regs areas. Todd archery season starts here real soon and statewide archer season is less than a month away. But let's talk about, you know, some things that maybe you do at the range that helps you become a better archer. I, I know for myself, I'm just going to give one real quick that I, you know, for years I, I would go out there and shoot and I'd try to shoot X amount of arrows, whether it's 25 or 50. And now I try to shoot every arrow and execute that shot the best that I can. And, and it's not necessarily the amount, it's, it's that execution of that shot. And that's helped me tremendously as an archer get through target panic. It's helped me in a hunting situation and that's just how I look at it. Maybe it's old age. I used to, you know, try to shoot 20 quivers full. Now I try to shoot six real good shots every day.
[00:38:51] Speaker C: Yeah, you said the bad word there. Target panic. Not allowed to say that. Not before archery season.
[00:38:56] Speaker B: Yeah, I was through it for a long time.
[00:38:59] Speaker C: Yeah. So, yeah, over the years, shooting competitively, I learned a lot of things on, you know, what's good practice and what's bad practice. And, you know, the number of arrows you shoot isn't always going to make you a better archer, because I shot 100 arrows today versus 15 arrows. And when you really start to figure out your form and what the process is of releasing an arrow the same each time, doing it the right way 40 times is way better than doing it the wrong way a hundred times.
So limiting your practice, you know, once you get tired, shut it down, is one of the things I've learned that benefits me the most.
If you're out there weaving around, shaking, your form starts to fail, you're not going to be as consistent, and, you know, you need to kind of step away for a while. So that's something I've learned. Another thing that I do, I've. I've hunted with my longbow.
[00:39:51] Speaker B: Well, your body fatigue's natural. You don't even know it. Something, your arm starts to drop.
[00:39:54] Speaker C: I mean, I'm. I'm getting older, so I can't hold as long or as much weight. And, you know, what I used to be able to shoot and how long I used to be able to shoot, I can't do anymore.
So, you know, some of that stuff you start to figure out over time, like, yeah, I can't get away with all the stuff that I used to do, but I started shooting a longbow, I don't know, 10 years ago. Hunted with it for three or four years. I still hunt with it from time to time.
One of the things that, that taught.
[00:40:19] Speaker B: Me was you had to go back to training wheels.
[00:40:21] Speaker C: Yeah, well, it's a whole different ball game, and it's a. It's a challenge that I loved.
Obviously, my kid loves it, too, but it's something that it takes time, and you really have to put in the effort.
Shooting one arrow every day, like. Like Galva said, is something that I learned was great for me because you only get one shot. You know, when you're in the tree stand, it's not like you get a second or third opportunity. So I would have my bow hanging on the porch at home, and I would get home from work, and I'd literally have an arrow sitting there. I just walk out and fling one arrow, and then I'd set it back on the porch, and maybe three hours later, I go out and do it again.
And I did that for weeks leading up to the season, because the only shot that really matters is that first one. So making that first one count and getting comfortable shooting that way was a big factor in my success in hunting with traditional archery. So. And then the last thing I'll share when shooting my compound, which I still do as well, I practice at longer distances, not distances I would take a hunting shot at by any means, but I'll practice at 60, 70, and 80 yards with my compound bow.
And then when it comes time to, you know, execute a shot at 20 yards, you know, that pin just rock solid, right? Stays right where you have it. You know, because you're so accustomed to shooting from so far away, when you get those, you know, bow range shots, it makes it a lot easier when.
[00:41:41] Speaker B: You get old like me, that when you get closer, if you're practicing at 50 or 40 or even farther and you get up to 20 yards, it makes that bullseye look a lot bigger, too.
[00:41:49] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:41:50] Speaker B: The other thing, too, that I just want to throw out there, don't limit your practice just to preseason. Like, once that season comes in, so many people forget about because it's all muscle memory.
Like, we all can think about when we drew the last deer we shot with a bow, you drew back, and everything anchored right, like everything just happened. You didn't have to think about it.
I always. I always probably practice as much during the season as I did preseason. I think that's something that a lot of people forget about.
[00:42:16] Speaker C: Yeah, that's a great point.
Things can get bumped, moved. You're pulling your bow up and down out of a tree and carrying it through the woods. A limb can hook your pin or your rest.
So shooting throughout the season, if something does get bumped or moved, you can catch that before you, you know, make a mistake and hit where you're not aiming.
You know, the other thing you can practice out of if you hunt up a tree stand or a saddle, Practice out of it. Practice out of it a lot.
There's, you know, I started saddle hunting a couple years ago. It's new to me, but I've enjoyed it. And the positions that you can get in in a saddle are completely different than anything you've ever been in with a tree stand, right? So practicing with that saddle on and the different positions and shifting around the tree and where to have your tether and things like that are all things that can benefit you in the woods, because you know, what feels comfortable, what you're comfortable with. Same with my kids. We have a ladder stand in the backyard. It's set up over our range. They practice out of the tree stand all the time, and that's because that's how we hunt. So, you know, whether it's a ground blind or if you're just hunting off the ground, or if you do hunt out of a stand or a saddle, practice in all those different scenarios. Wear your clothes, wear your.
Your head net, if you wear that, or, you know, all those things all help you.
[00:43:28] Speaker B: You're probably a face painter, aren't you?
[00:43:30] Speaker C: I'm not.
[00:43:30] Speaker B: Okay, Just making sure.
[00:43:31] Speaker C: I just. The beard is my camo.
[00:43:33] Speaker B: I got you. So, Luke, let's talk about firearms, because we all go to the range. Hopefully we all go to the range and zero our guns, but there's other things you can talk about when it. You know, to me, I'm gonna go to turkey hunting real quick. You know, we pattern our guns, but, like, even practicing with your shotgun, even if it's a stationary target, it's important to know that that firearm, whatever you're taking in the woods, is, like, part of your body.
[00:43:55] Speaker A: Absolutely. Firearms are. A lot of people think just because you can grab it off the rack and stuff like that, it should fit you. But fit is probably one of the most important things, especially with shooting shotgun, turkey hunting, waterfowl, upland bird hunting. And the one thing that I always view and I stat that I tell people a lot of the times, is when it comes to, like, shooting sports in general, it's 95% mental, 5% physical. Yeah, you have the muscle memory of doing everything, but. But it all comes down to the six inches between your ears.
Being confident in your equipment.
[00:44:24] Speaker B: Yours is a lot more than six inches. Yeah.
[00:44:29] Speaker A: But being confident. Being confident in your equipment, spending some time out in the range, and just trusting your process. So, like myself, I have a shot process. When it comes down to executing a shot. Like. So I'll use, like, rifle hunting, like, with my rifle as an example, is if I'm shooting off of a bench or even a bipod.
I'll go through my quick little checklist, and this is where the practice comes in, is because you have a deer, you have a deer you're out hunting. A lot of times, it's a quick judgment snap shot where I can run through this process in the snap of a finger, but where I place my hand on the rifle, where the trigger's positioned in my finger. And then what I do is I Run through a quick checklist as I start at the tip of my finger, go up through, make sure everything's relaxed and just go center squeeze. I'd center squeeze and I touch the shot off and just being able to repeat that constantly. And it goes the same thing with BO and what that does is it sets a process, it sets a precedence to help avoid that target panic. Because you can start running through all kinds of scenarios through your head. And it's quieting the mind is what I tell people is you want to quiet your mind and focus center squeeze and be able to take that off. And it's the same thing too. It's. I would rather go to the rifle range. And yeah, there's a lot of things you can do. Such as, like Dave Mitchell, that's on our podcast all the time with us. Dave goes and test loads constantly. So you can go and test loads at the rifle range. You can go sight in your gun. You can just go for recreation. But being able to go with a purpose and a set plan. When I go to the range, so it's like, okay, I'm going in, setting up my rifle today. I'm sighting it in and I'm going to exit. Once I get it cited in, I'm going to execute three solid shots for a grouping to make sure that everything's solid. And then same thing too. During the season, I like to at least make sure I get a shot off or two to take it back to the range and making sure. And I know it's tough to do. And it's the same thing too with like, if you're an upland bird hunter or waterfowl. There's a ton of sportsman's clubs around the local area that have sporting clay shoots. They do fundraiser shoots and or just general weekly sporting clay shoots. You can go shoot 50 birds for 10 bucks, 15 bucks. And it's great practice because you're seeing all kinds of different target presentations. And when you're in the field, you don't know where that bird or where that game's coming from. So being able to put yourself in those scenarios for when you're in the field is. Is crucial.
[00:46:44] Speaker B: One of the.
When I think back to my childhood, I remember my dad two things that are specific. One was sitting still, like if you moved and blinked, like you were getting told about it. But when it came to shooting, it was squeezing the trigger on a rifle. And you know, like, you just talked about how you really squeeze and hit this. But I remember this. I moved to Iowa when I was 22.
And in Iowa, it's shotgun only, deer hunting. And I remember some of my buddies, they were going to. I think they were going to Wisconsin or somewhere where they bought rifles. And we went to the range and they sat down on that range and shot it like they did their 870. And, I mean, they jerked the trigger and, you know, they bought Both. Bought brand new 700 BDLS and, you know, put really good optics on it and good mounts and good bases, but they couldn't hit a pie plate at 50 yards because they never learned how to shoot a rifle and shoot it right. And that's, you know, here in Pennsylvania, I think, you know, our guys are hunters, guys and girls. And believe it or believe me on this, girls are way better shots than guys are with a gun, bow, whatever, because they listen and they just are. I mean, it's just how it is. But squeezing that trigger and having that become muscle memory and second nature, I think is crucial.
[00:47:51] Speaker A: Aim small, miss small.
[00:47:52] Speaker B: That's right. Well, gentlemen.
Well, gentlemen, thank you for everything. Thank you for everything you do for the agency. Thank you for your passion in shooting sports and hunting, and look forward to talking to you again real soon.
[00:48:03] Speaker A: Thanks for having us, Matt.
[00:48:04] Speaker B: Heck, yeah.
[00:48:05] Speaker C: Thank you.
