Ep. 63 | Protect & Serve: Game Wardens in the Wild

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Your game woman is a part of your community. You know, treat them as you would your neighbor, and, you know, they're there to help you. They're there to make you successful, and they're there to stop the people that want to cheat. [00:00:13] Speaker B: We're all in it to when we leave this agency and leave this earth that there's still wildlife here in Pennsylvania for the future. [00:00:20] Speaker A: One of the things that's amazing about, you know, the North American model of wildlife conservation is that, you know, we share all the ownership of these animals. And when you have somebody going out and they're legitimately killing, taking more than they're entitled to, they're stealing from all of us. [00:00:41] Speaker B: Hello again, and welcome to Call of the Outdoors, the podcast of the Pennsylvania Game Commission. You know, it's that time of year. The leaves have probably almost dropped by now in most places. Still a lot of color here in central Pennsylvania, and it's the time of year that we're all looking forward to. And the shame of it is it goes too fast the older you get. And, you know, the rut is upon us. And there's lots of people that we've seen, gotten lots of pictures, lots of people are successful out there in the field, whether it's deer or small game. And November is just a great month. But we also have a very exciting guest today. We have a brand new colonel of our law enforcement here in Pennsylvania at the Game Commission, Mr. Rod Danley. Good morning, Rod. [00:01:23] Speaker A: Morning. Thanks for having me. [00:01:24] Speaker B: Absolutely. And we're excited about it. And, you know, we want to talk about a lot of things, you know, a lot of history about yourself and some of the vision that you have here when you. When, you know, you came into headquarters and leading the field of great men and women we have out there as game wardens that are out there every day protecting wildlife. And, you know, sometimes folks don't understand why there are game wardens, and we want to kind of get into that today. But before we do, you know, Rod, let's talk about yourself and why you're here today. [00:01:56] Speaker A: Sure. I think, like most of us in this agency, we kind of all have a passion for some sort of outdoors activity. And as a young person, as a young kid, I was always into hunting and trapping. And, you know, you think about that career path you're gonna take, and it's like, well, doing something outdoors is probably something that I want to pursue, like being a biologist or a forester or something like that, because kind of as I got a little bit older, I started to realize that law enforcement was something I had an interest in. And being a game warden was kind of one of those driving like, well, I can combine the biology aspect of it at the same time as kind of moving into a law enforcement realm. I think all of us have had experiences as well in our youth where you see somebody do something and you're like, boy, I wish somebody would be here to stop that. My personal experience was a. A fishing trout derby that I watched some guys doing some stuff as a young man that I was like, man, there should be a fish officer here to handle that. And that was really kind of my catalyst for wanting to move into this direction. And, you know, I was originally looking at colleges to kind of pursue that. And there was a college fair at the convention center down in Philadelphia, and I was. I was heart set on going to University of Alaska. That's where I wanted to go for wildlife biology. So as I was walking around all the booths, there was a little college for Maine called Unity College. And they had their little booth set up where they were giving out their brochures and handing that stuff around. And kind of walked up to them and said, what's your wildlife biology program like? And they said, well, what do you want to do? I said, well, ultimately I'd like to be a game warden. And they said, oh, we have a conservation law enforcement degree. So. So at the time, it was the only college in the country that had a four year bachelor's Conservation law enforcement. So I went up there for four years, earned my degree in conservation law, and, you know, pretty much from there is what started me on the journey. [00:03:50] Speaker B: Maine's a terrible place to live. [00:03:51] Speaker A: It was horrible. [00:03:52] Speaker B: It was horrible if you like the outdoors. But when you, you know, let's talk about after those college days and how you got to the Game Commission here and what you had to do. You know, when I look at the class that's in there right now, and even back years ago, there was a lot more people that applied for the class and the competition was really stiff to get into the Russ Leffler school. [00:04:13] Speaker A: Yeah, I tested in 1998, so got hired in 99. So I've been doing this 26 years now. But at the time, the competition, as you said, was quite a bit more rigid. And I went into the testing process thinking that, well, this will be my first attempt at seeing if I could be successful and we'll move on from there. Most people were telling me it would take three times to get in. And I was fortunate enough to Luck into it. My first time, and at 23 years old, I started the academy in 1999. It was an interesting experience, to say the least. You go from a college atmosphere to an academy. And our academy is paramilitary, as you know. It was a bit of a shocking experience to understand that I had to polish my boots and make my bed and be where they tell me to be when they need me to be there. It was a bit of a transition, but, yeah, that was my original avenue to get here. And then upon graduation, I was assigned to central headquarters here in Harrisburg, where I worked for five years in our investigative section. So it was our special investigative section. So I did that for. For the first five years of my career, which was exciting. [00:05:30] Speaker B: We're gonna. We're gonna talk about that a little later, for sure. [00:05:33] Speaker A: After that, I had wanted to live or wanted a district over in central Pennsylvania, specifically in Huntington county, which is where my half of my family was from. And I waited for the. The word in there, John Rohr, to retire. And when he finally retired, I transferred into that position and. And spent additional five years there and then promoted into the Huntington headquarters, the division headquarters, as they used to call them. Now they're the regional offices. But I went in there and served as the information education supervisor for about six months until the law enforcement supervisor position opened up. And I had that position since 2012. [00:06:14] Speaker B: Oh, wow. So we work with the IES quite a bit in our bureau. And, you know, one thing that happens with game wardens or, you know, across the state that folks don't realize is they're tasked with a lot of duties. When you said earlier about, like, being a biologist, they assist the biologist. I mean, law enforcement's one part of it. But the game warden. The game wardens across the state, there are first folks that people see with the agency a lot of times, whether it's at a gas station, a restaurant in the field, or whatever. And they're always trying to provide that information to folks that they need. I mean, you know, we have to admit that, you know, when you open our law book, there's lots of laws out there. The Digest is a snippet of, you know, what the game laws are, and we're gonna talk about that a little bit more, too. And you take that oath to enforce those laws on behalf of the agency and on behalf of the state, and, you know, that's one of your jobs. But the game wardens jobs are so entailed with lots of different things. And one of the things I say this all the time being from the outside, in the last six years, have learned so much about the duties and tasks. But the brotherhood and sisterhood that game wardens have is pretty amazing in our agency. And we're all in it to when we leave this agency and leave this earth that there's still wildlife here in Pennsylvania for the future. And I think that's one of the most important role that we have to do as employees of the agency, in my opinion. [00:07:38] Speaker A: Definitely. Definitely. I think one of the things that we all do in this agency that is very interesting is that, you know, we generally come here because we have a passion for wildlife, whether that be just wildlife viewing or whether it be hunting, fur taking. And then we have to kind of set that on a shelf when we come here, because this career path interferes with your ability to do those things. You know, you have. If you want to go deer hunting as a game warden, you're going to have to go out there and check deer hunters. So that limits your opportunities to do that. So I think everybody who works here sacrifices a little bit, which makes it a very noble endeavor because, you know, all the guys that work our bear check stations, all the folks that are out there checking deer heads at butcher shops, they all could be doing what they really want to do, which is get after white tailed deer, if that's the case. So it takes a special type of person that does what we do as a group. Gay Mordens, obviously, as you said, they are the ones that get tasked with having to explain why we do what we do most often, whether that be at a gas station or in a public venue where they stand up and talk to people. But they're just one part of what we do. There's so many other employees that work here, and I'm proud to say that our game wardens do an excellent job of representing our agency. [00:09:01] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:09:02] Speaker A: The law can be complicated. The law can be misunderstood. Clearly, there are people that don't care what the law says. They'll do whatever they want to do, irrespective of it. And that's why we're here, to kind of stop those people from exploiting our resources. Right. [00:09:16] Speaker B: When you think about that too, and you know, maybe kind of talk about why we do have game wardens, you know, obviously in 1895 when the agency was established, it was very important because without enforcing those laws, without those laws, wildlife wouldn't have a chance. [00:09:31] Speaker A: Right. I think it's really important too, to keep in mind that, you know, the Pennsylvania Game Commission was created by the sportsmen and women of Pennsylvania, they wanted a governing body that would manage wildlife in a way that would continue to have wildlife available for them to hunt and to trap. So laws were created back then, but without an enforcement arm and the ability to actually stop people or make people follow the law, it was almost impossible. So laws were originally created within the first couple years, but the game wardens weren't present yet to be able to actually enforce it. And I think that's really an interesting dynamic when you think about. It was the hunters and trappers in Pennsylvania that wanted us to exist. And here we are today by proxy, doing their bidding, asking, what do you want? How many animals do you think are fair to be harvested? [00:10:25] Speaker B: And. [00:10:26] Speaker A: And we enforce those laws as the regulations require. [00:10:30] Speaker B: Right. And keeping our folks safe out there in the field, I mean, that's. That's a whole nother caveat of, you know, it's not that we're trying to say, this is how you have to do it. We're trying to, you know, keep people safe and enjoying that recreation that they love out there. And, you know, it's a big job. It definitely is a big job. But talk about, kind of circle back to your outdoor passions and everybody. You know, we're so diverse in this agency. You know, most people love to hunt, trap, fish, you know, hike, whatever it is, but we all have that passion for the outdoors. And what are some of your personal passions? [00:11:02] Speaker A: Well, interestingly enough, you know, I. I was interested in deer hunting like most of us, pheasant hunting, like most of us. And so when I went to my first hunter education class, I sat in there, and it was quite different than it is today, but there was a whole section on trapping where they showed you how to make sets and fox sets and raccoon sets. And I. I was enthralled with the fact that this guy was burying a trap in the dirt. I. I thought you just set them on the ground and an animal would walk into them, but I had no idea the science behind it. So after. After that hunter ed class, I. I started thinking this might be something I'd like to do. So the. The bug that bit me initially was fur taking trapping, and I spent a lot of time raccoon trapping and fox trapping. Having grown up in southeastern Penns, we have one of the best red fox populations probably in the country. [00:11:57] Speaker B: One of the last strongholds, really, of a thriving population. [00:12:01] Speaker A: And the first animal I ever caught in a foot trap was, in fact, a red fox. A lot of guys talk about possums and whatnot. [00:12:08] Speaker B: You went right for the top. [00:12:09] Speaker A: Yeah. Just luck. But yeah, it was a red fox and had no idea what I was doing. And because I didn't know what I was doing, I violated an awful lot of laws while I was doing it. You can go down the list. It was pretty much everything you could violate. But it bit me. And I was a fur taker during that entire time. Squirrel hunting, small game hunting, all that kind of stuff. But my time in Maine kind of got bit by the waterfowl bug. And, you know, there's a lot of water up there. The duck hunting is. Is amazing. So coming back down here, I brought that passion with me. And, and over the past probably five years, that's been where I spend most of my time is pursuing waterfowl in any mechanism I can. [00:12:57] Speaker B: Right. [00:12:57] Speaker A: Any manner, whether it be a blind or a boat, whatever it may be. But that's really what I like to do with my time now. [00:13:04] Speaker B: And that's like I always say, to each their own. You know, as long as we're out there. And as a hunter, we're conservationists and, you know, we're just providing and helping the future no matter where we're at. If you're a waterfowl hunter or squirrel hunter or, you know, let's just hit on trapping real quick. Cause I think it's important. And you know, in our day, trapping was a lot bigger. You know, obviously you could fill your gas tank and make a little money, you know, with the prices of furs back then. But I always said this. One of my mentors in the outdoor industry, especially on the outdoor TV side, was Tom Miranda. I'm sure you know, Tom. Tom. I was in Florida one time and we were talking about how, you know, he got his start in trapping. And I always say this. Anybody that can make a fox or a coyote step on a 2 1/2 inch pan and target that to make that animal come in there and catch him and hold him or her. That's what hunting is all about, too. Like deer hunting or turkey hunting is put yourself in those positions that, you know, if you're hunting bucks, a buck or a doe is going to walk by you or a turkey calling it in and, you know, putting yourself in those positions the same as a trapper. But, you know, Pennsylvania coyotes are probably one of the toughest things for to catch. And if you had one tip that you could give to somebody that's trying to catch a coyote this, this fall or this winter, would you have one off top And I know I'm hitting you. [00:14:25] Speaker A: Yeah. Don't overthink it. [00:14:27] Speaker B: Right. [00:14:27] Speaker A: Keep it simple. A lot of the new coyote trappers are people that haven't had success, tend to overthink what they're doing. Most of the successes that I've had, and most of the guys who proficiently catch coyotes in numbers are usually keeping a very simple system. Everything is essentially the same. And what they're doing isn't very much different than maybe a fox set or a raccoon set of a dirt hole on the ground. It's just keep it simple. Scent is one of those things that we hear about with hunting, but in fur taking, obviously that's a huge issue. But don't for a second think that these animals don't smell humans every day. They know. They know that you've been there. So don't worry about that as much. Make your set solid, bed it and don't let anything rock and you'll have success. Especially with coyotes. [00:15:18] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. And that's, you know, there's so many tips and tricks and tactics. And I love what you said about not overthinking. I don't care if it's whitetails or turkeys or whatever we're talking about. We're the only animal that can think and reason and figure out a situation. And sometimes we forget about that. You know, we're out there. Those animals are surviving, they're out there. And when you do overthink, it is a lot of times when we make mistakes. And, you know, speaking of overthinking it, I'm just going to break real quick and talk about something that's happening right now. You know, we're first week of November. It is, for lack of a better word, Santa Claus is here. The rut is on. And, you know, a lot of times we are in a grind where after we get in, you know, today's technology, we're getting trail cameras and we're thinking, what's going on? Those animals out there are being animals. Put yourself in the right positions, you know, put the wind in your favor to the best of your ability. Those deer are living every day by their nose. Utilize technology like calls. You know, that's when these, if you're, if you're hunting bucks or bigger bucks, I mean, this is when they lose their minds because they're in breeding season. They're trying to find those does. If you can use the wind to your advantage, obviously, preseason scouting, know where to be and hunt smart. I mean, hunt when the times are right. You Don't. It's not necessarily how much you get out there and how much time you spend out there. It's hunting out there at the right times. And, you know, this is the best time of year for whitetail hunters. It's when we're all out there as archery hunters. And, you know, especially this, you know, from here until firearm season, it's just a great time to be in the woods. And we can't say enough about it, and we wish everybody out there to be safe. But one thing I do want to say, if you're getting off the ground, I don't care if it's a foot off the ground, make sure you're strapped to the tree. You know, just this year, we've had a couple of related accidents to tree stands and tree stand failures. And we also have a lot of success stories because people are listening to the world right now. When they get off the ground, they're strapping in the whole way up to that tree stand. But enjoy yourself out there. And, you know, like I said, this is the best time of year to chase whitetails, in my opinion. And it's just like turkey season. We get in there to spread spring turkey season, they're in their mating season. When that gobbler gobbles, you know, the hairs on the back of your neck stand up, and it's passion, just like trapping when you see a set of coyote tracks. But, you know, one thing that we have to do together, whether you're a hunter, whether we're in the marketing bureau here at the game commission or law enforcement agency, we all have to work together for the future. And as we look at the world today, and we can go down so many rabbit holes. But in my opinion, hunters, no matter what, we need to work together. We need to erase those division lines and stop infighting about dumb things. But talk about how we like to work together as game wardens with the public and how we can probably do better as we go forward. [00:18:08] Speaker A: Yeah. I think was always a reputation that game wardens had of being that. That kind of curmudgeony person who was kind of hard and unyielding when it came to understanding. [00:18:22] Speaker B: They get nicknames, and I'm sure you've heard them all. [00:18:24] Speaker A: Yeah, all of them. Yeah. And, you know, some. Some of us hold those nicknames with a badge of honor. But the reality is, is that, you know, we're out there to enforce the law. And one of the things that I like to tell the public about that is that, you know, most of everyone that we deal with are good people that are trying to follow the rules and have a good day afield. But there's always that percentage of people, no different than a general population, that are just not going to follow the rules, Whether that be a criminal in a city somewhere or a town, or whether it be just a hunter. There's always that small percentage of people that you have to be cognizant of. And also that's our job to stop them from doing it, because they know what they're doing and they don't necessarily care that we have rules and regulations. And one of the things that's amazing about the North American model of wildlife conservation is that we share all the ownership of these animals. And we often hear about your deer. The Game Commission's deer eating my crops, or Game Commission's deer eating my hedges. Yeah, yeah, I guess you can perceive it that way. But they're actually everyone's deer. And when you have somebody going out and they're legitimately killing, taking more than they're entitled to, they're stealing from all of us. Every one of us that purchases a license, but also every one of us that is a resident of our state. And that's really the type of people that the game wardens are focusing their efforts on. But it's hard for a game warden to know who that individual is when they make the initial approach. They don't know whether this individual is a habitual violator versus somebody that is just out completely legal. And, you know, so we go through our checks, you know, we ask for their licenses, we make sure that their firearms are safe, and that can be a little confrontational, you know, so, you know, we can do better. And I think we are. Our wardens do an excellent job of building a rapport with people and speaking with them. But hunters also need to understand that, hey, I'm out here hunting, and I may get checked today, and if I do, you know, it's not a big deal. Warden's going to make sure I'm good and move me on down the road so I can be successful today. A lot of times that's kind of lost in translation. [00:20:46] Speaker B: Right, understood. [00:20:47] Speaker A: And. And I think it's important that, you know, we all continue to move in that direction of like, hey, if you see a game warden, he's not necessarily here to write fines. He's. He or she is most likely going to want to see what you harvested, because, as I said earlier, we're interested in what guys are shooting and harvesting as well, because that's where our passions lie. I know quite often I've been excited for a young kid that harvested his or her first deer. And the interaction is absolutely just having a conversation about, congratulations, good job. Sometimes those turn into something else when you find out that individual didn't have a license or their firearms loaded in their vehicle, something like that, and then that gets addressed accordingly. But that's not the original reason we were there. We're there to pat them on the back and shake hands with them and say, good job. But these interactions that we do as game wardens are very fluid. They go from very simple to very complex. But I can tell you that most of the men and women that do this job, we're out there looking for the habitual violators that are doing serious damage to our resource, because there are those people out there. And every time that we've had encounters with those people, every time we have arrested or cited people for those things, it's based on information that other people have told us, mainly other hunters. And I think that's an important relationship that needs to remain because there's only one officer in a very large area geographically, but there's lots of hunters that are out there seeing what's going on, whether it's somebody doing something illegal with a baiting scenario, or whether it's somebody who harvesting a second buck. All of that kind of stuff is super important. And those relationships exist. They may not be publicized very much, but a warden who has a district that's effective has built those relationships to know who's doing what and why and where it's being done. [00:22:53] Speaker B: Yeah. And you look at the OGT program, Operation Game Thief, it's an anonymous program. You see something going on, you can give us a call on the hotline. And that's been a very effective program here in the state because like you said, when somebody is stealing, they're stealing from all of us. And our limits are getting very liberal. When you look at, you can go have fun. We're encouraging folks to harvest antlerless deer in a lot of areas. You know, as. As we look at, you know, hunting numbers in the last 30 years, you know, we're. We're just shy of 900,000 people that. That do buy a hunting license and. And partake every fall. But when you look at our deer population, you know, there's a lot of areas that we do need to. To work on numbers. Places where we can't grow new forests and agriculture. Areas like Southwest, you know, this. This year, when our pilot program Was certified hunter, trying to help out some of the folks that are making a living with agriculture. Hunting is important when it comes to managing those populations. And what I respect the most about game wardens, I used to travel the country and be able to hunt in a lot of different states. And usually the first call I made when I got to camp was the local game warden. Because I wanted to become friends with him. I wanted him to know we were in town and I wanted to talk to him and show you. Showing my license and all that stuff and if I needed. And many times I called them for help, especially on recoveries, because I wanted people to know that it was legit. And sometimes they took us up on it. And I made a lot of great friends that way. And what I've experienced across not only Pennsylvania, but across the country, that how much game wardens care. Many folks don't see that when they get checked. They think that they're just trying to catch you with something. And this is off the wall a little bit. But the other night, my daughter and I were coming home from a dirt track race and we went through a DUI checkpoint. And the officer was incredibly. He was awesome. He asked us a lot of questions. We didn't have any alcoholic drinks, but he asked us who won the race and was just questioning us. And I kind of joked around with him. And my daughter had a turkey feather and we got to talking about hunting in the middle of a DUI checkpoint. But they're just doing their job. And that's what. That's what our game wardens are doing out there. They're doing their job to protect wildlife. And why we exist as an agency to make sure that just following our mission. [00:25:23] Speaker A: I think it's interesting as well, to a point you just brought up where you have. Game wardens generally know their districts pretty well. So if you're a hunter and you're new to the area, you can ask them, is there landowners that are having problems with deer and want more deer? Remember, moved. They open doors sometimes that you wouldn't normally have had open to you. If you're going and hunting public land, that's fine. Perfectly great. And again, we're blessed with an amazing amount of public land in this state. But a game boarding can. Can give you a hyper focus, especially as. As we get more liberal bag limits and we have more opportunities for harvest. There's people that. That they can direct you to. And I think hunters should, you know, kind of take that into account. [00:26:03] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:26:04] Speaker A: Anybody out there that's looking for some more deer to be taken off their farm or off their nursery or whatever the case may be. And I think they can. They can make those connections pretty solidly. [00:26:14] Speaker B: Advice on game lands because they know those game lands in their district like the back of their hand. You know, they might know where there's, you know, a timber sale or something with some really good habitat that you might not be able to see on onyx or. And I mean, be. Be their friends, be friends with each other, Create those networking relationships. [00:26:32] Speaker A: Especially important with bear hunting because usually the game wardens know where they put the bears on the game lands, and they also know where they're doing the research, trapping. So they generally have a good knowledge of. Of, you know, bear populations on public lands. It's amazing, amazing what they know. [00:26:49] Speaker B: If you ask, or where there's a good oak stand that's dropping acorns and. Yeah, there's just so much. And, you know, let's. Let's just circle back on that a little bit. Let's say, you know, especially new hunters, too. You know, like you said, it can be very intimidating when you're approached by an officer. Do you have any good advice for a hunter out there any time of the year when they get approached by a game warden? [00:27:10] Speaker A: Well, I think the advice that I would offer is that, you know, just realize that it's not necessarily going to be a bad interaction, but you can make it a bad interaction, you know, and game wardens are often mirrors of what behavior they see and it comes back to them and they reflect it back to the individual. So, you know, if you have an enthusiastic check and this happens a lot. I'm not trying to say that all these interactions are bad. They're not. But there's been times where I've been with game wardens in their new districts, and the hunter would say, it's the first time I've ever been checked by a game warden. I've been hunting for 35 years. It's an experience for them. It's a big, like a checklist, almost like a bucket listing. Those are the good. The good experiences. But keeping that attitude, having that attitude to say like, this can be a positive encounter is probably what I would recommend for the hunter. Don't look at it as being a. [00:28:03] Speaker B: Negative thing, just working together. [00:28:05] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, we don't like to hold up a deer drive, and you've got 25 people that are assembled in a parking area getting ready to push off a ridge, and you've got to check their licenses like I understand you guys want to get in your positions. Let's. Let's get you all checked to make sure we can get out of here as quick as possible. And they will. The wardens will accommodate that. But they have to do their job. They're going to go through all the, all the checks and make sure that firearms are good and the orange requirements are good, licensing is good. But they're well aware of the fact that, you know, you've got something to do. You guys are all off of work today and you want to push this ridge off. Let's get you going. So I would offer for hunters just, you know, keep an open mind when they have those encounters and embrace the experience. It might be a story for camp later that night. [00:28:46] Speaker B: Absolutely. And you said earlier, you know, in your first trapping endeavors there was probably some violations. And, you know, I don't think anybody in the agency, in the, in the country that doesn't break a violation sometime in their career. I mean, it happens. Like you said, you're more looking for the habitual. But you know, the biggest thing that I always tell folks, you know, especially, you know, younger folks, is if you think it's wrong, just no deer, no turkey, no bear, no squirrel. Nothing's worth breaking the law for. If you think that there's something that's not right. And you know, obviously you can look at the digest. There's so many resources online resources, you know, if you think it's not right, just don't do it. I mean, it's really simple. It's just like speeding. You know, we all. Everybody drives over the speed limit. It's not right. If you get pulled over, there's no reason to argue with the officer because you were speeding. I mean, it's just how it is. [00:29:39] Speaker A: I think too, you know, hunting is a little different in we. We use those analogies about, you know, speeding and things like that. But hunting's a little different in the sense that you can do everything 100% correct and still violate the law. You know, you can, you can look at a set of antlers on a deer and think you can't. You counted the legal amount of points and still harvest a deer. That's not legal. You can set a beaver trap and catch an otter. You didn't do anything wrong. The circumstances were just didn't line up in your favor. But we have mechanisms for that. And I think it's important for everybody to know that we understand that these things happen. So when they do call us, we're going to work through it. Every year we get non target catches and traps. That was no fault of the trapper. And every year we've got someone who shoots a deer and maybe the bullet goes through and kills another deer behind it. No fault of the hunter. [00:30:34] Speaker B: Right. [00:30:35] Speaker A: And we understand that, you know, and we, we want to work with everybody to kind of move them along so they continue to, they can continue to hunt that day or that season. But really it's about communication. Because when that game warden later finds that that deer, an extra deer, you know, stowed away in a truck under a tarp, well, it's going to be hard to explain that, well, I made a mistake or I did something I, I didn't mean to do because now it looks like you're trying to hide it. So just getting on that cell phone, making the assumption that you're in an area where a cell phone works and making that call and saying, hey, this is what happened, that goes a long way to kind of correcting some of that. And I think that's the beauty of title 34, where we recognize that people do things that are wrong but they didn't intend to. So we've built kind of safeguards into it so that we can address these things. [00:31:31] Speaker B: It's a lot better to own it right out of the gate in anything in life. But, you know, especially when you look at. Because we all make mistakes. We, we all put our pants on the same way. Sound like my grandpa. And you know, we all do different things for a living, but we're, you know, we're all, we're all the same. And the more honest and take ownership in mistakes, the better we all would be in life. And, you know, when I look at hunters, I think we've come a long way. When I look at my past of people that have formed a relationship with their local wardens or with the agency, I think when we look at Pennsylvania as a whole, we've came a long way in the past 20, 25 years. [00:32:06] Speaker A: I agree, I agree. We work much closer with our hunters today than I think we did originally. [00:32:11] Speaker B: Yeah. And we, you know, and you look at technology and how we can communicate with the hunters, whether it's website, social media, I mean, there's so many ways that we can communicate and get those communications out there to the public and going back to kind of hitting on communications. And I think we should talk about why there are game laws. And you mentioned Title 34 and kind of explain what Title 34 is, because we hear that a lot internally. Most people understand that. But when we get outside of our walls, Title 34 is just a word to most people. [00:32:44] Speaker A: And the. The easiest way to explain it is that Title 34 is the game and Wildlife Code, which is the law that was enacted by our state legislature and approved through the entire vetting process that occurs with creating laws and establishes the Pennsylvania game commission. Title 34 is what says the Game Commission can do, what the Game Commission can do, from the number of commissioners that we are allowed to have to the safety material that's required, what is considered lawful versus not lawful, what a farmer can do for agricultural depredation, what a individual can do for protecting their home from wildlife. It's all codified down to how much money can be charged per acre of game lands for taxes. All of that is broken down into law that requires a legislative action to change. And some of the stuff that we see with legislative action. The big one lately is obviously Sunday hunting in the. The law. It was prohibited when that was written many, many, many years ago. Pennsylvania legislature and the hunters did not want Sunday hunting, and that had to be changed. On the other side of that, we have regulations which are Title 58. So you'll hear game wardens talk about a Title 58 or a Title 34 violation. There's violations in both of those. But 58 allows our board of Commissioners to manipulate mechanisms and take and devices that the law would not allow. So as an example, I always explain this in my classes in hunter Ed. There is no season date in Title 34. And so the opening day of deer season, whatever day that happens to be, isn't in the law. It has to be done through the regulations. And if we waited for the legislature to do that, that process takes so long that the season would be over by the time the law got approved. [00:34:43] Speaker B: Maybe three years. [00:34:44] Speaker A: Yeah, potentially. So the regulations allow the Board of Commissioners to say, okay, this is when it's going to start next year, and this is how many animals are going to be able to be taken. Based on the research that we've provided, biologists have provided to us, all of that kind of stuff can be changed. The one big thing with game wardens and also the public that's in there is legality of devices. So every year we have the, you know the sports show, the Great American Outdoor Sports Show. What is it called now? Is it the. [00:35:11] Speaker B: It's a Great American NRA show. [00:35:14] Speaker A: I always get confused. [00:35:15] Speaker B: Used to be the sportsman show forever. [00:35:17] Speaker A: Yeah, it's changed a couple times. [00:35:19] Speaker B: It is the biggest one in the country. I Don't know if you know that or not. [00:35:21] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, it's amazing. But every year they have new devices for sale, and the law doesn't necessarily incorporate those devices because they weren't even thought of. And I think that's kind of important for most hunters to know the way our regulations are. The board of commissioners have to approve the device as legal before it can be used. And I think it was several years ago, many, many moons ago. And I don't want to be disparaging to any one company, but there was a broadhead that was being sold there that had like a.357 bullet in the head, so that when the arrow hit, it would discharge the.357 round. And the proprietor was saying, well, they're legal in Pennsylvania. Well, they clearly were not. And that's something that hunters need to understand that, like, I'm buying a new device, better check before I buy it, make sure it's legal. And you know, as a general rule, if it's electronic and it doesn't have approval by the board, then it's prohibited. As a waterfowl hunter in Pennsylvania, until they allowed for mojo ducks, they were illegal. You could not hunt with a motion activated decoy because it was an unapproved electronic device. That's since changed. But always stay up on top of that. So the difference between the regulations are that they're much more fluid and much more topical, and the title is much more rigid and much more structured as it goes to how we function and what we can and can't do. All the game wardens powers and duties are all within the title. But on the other side of it, regulations can clarify some of that. An interesting thing that I think is fascinating, we talked about coyotes earlier, is that we really don't define coyotes in our title. So Definitions in Title 34 are super important. And we break everything down. Big game, small game, furbearers. Coyotes are kind of not present in that. And why is that? Because we didn't have them in Pennsylvania in 1895 when the codes were written. [00:37:24] Speaker B: The population changes. Yeah. [00:37:26] Speaker A: So now they're in regulations. We define it in regulations, which allows us to say, okay, they're furbearers as defined by Title 34, and you can harvest them accordingly. [00:37:37] Speaker B: Well, you talked about, and this is a great point, it kind of rang a bell in my head because I came from the hunting industry, and the hunting industry is always trying to find a new way to be more proficient. And, you know, sometimes products hit the market and they're great products. And you know, when we, and that's why I encourage like industry all the time. When we do industry shows, trade shows, I'm like, you have to get with the wildlife agencies because if we don't know what's coming, it's, it takes us time to get those things. You know, you look at today's technology and broadheads and arrows and look at shotgun shells, look at like turkey ammunition, waterfowl ammunition, even rifle ammunition. Like there's so much that technology is day to day and through the state processes and what we have to do if we're up on that stuff, other than reading it, when we form those relationship with the industries, I would recommend to all industry out there to talk to their agencies and talk to their law enforcement partners when those products come out. That's a great idea. It's something that we should probably talk about, you know, throughout the country when we go to these trade shows and. [00:38:41] Speaker A: You know, not trying to inflate our egos in Pennsylvania too much, but we have a large hunting constituency that goes all over the country and purchases a lot of outdoor gear. Kind of bouncing it off of us would be pretty important because we have a lot of people that are potentially going to buy it. I mean, I think we are like number two in the amount of hunters in the country. [00:39:04] Speaker B: We are. When you talk to the outdoor industry, I mean we have the number one brick and mortar hunting, fishing, outdoor related store sitting in Hamburg with Cabela's. I mean, and you talk to a lot of the outdoor industry throughout the country and you know, Pennsylvania is their number one ship, ship to state. Our sportsmen buy a lot of gear out there and you know, partly of how we're funded, you know, through the Pittman Robertson dollars with guns, ammo, guns and ammunition and archery equipment. It's part of wildlife conservation funding. And we're very fortunate and lucky to have that, that tradition, that passion of hunters out there. Exactly right. [00:39:40] Speaker A: Yeah, it's, it's very interesting. [00:39:42] Speaker B: We can't count Texas as number one. There's a whole country down there. I always tease, but you know, to still remain in the top, you know, four or five is number two of hunters in the country in this day and age is pretty amazing. And you know, when I look at numbers this year, I just got a report the other day on hunting license sold. You know, we're flattening the curve. We're staying pretty level with the last, you know, seven, eight years of licensed hunters. Yeah. And it's. That's great. [00:40:07] Speaker A: Yeah. Very encouraging. One of the things two hunters need to know about the laws, and I think it plays a little bit into technology, is that, you know, the laws are written essentially for two purposes. One is for safety, and the other is for fair chase. So, you know, those who don't know what fair chase is, that's the ability to pursue wildlife in a manner that we as the citizenry of Pennsylvania feel is okay. That's why in our state, there are certain activities that are prohibited because we as a citizenry say, no, we don't like that. We don't think it's fair. Perfect example was Sunday hunting. We didn't want it. Now we have it, which is great because it gives everybody an opportunity to get an extra day, especially those that work. But that attitude changed. So you have that fair chase idea of what is considered fair, and then we have safety. So a lot of the other rules and regulations are about what you can't do because it's unsafe. Shooting close to a home, having a loaded firearm in your car. You know, these are things where we see people get hurt, we see damage to property and most of the device interpretations. So the new hunting gear falls on fair chase. Does this make it easier for the hunter to harvest animals? And if it does, are we okay with that? And I think that's really important to take into context because some of the things, if they're safety oriented, usually aren't really debatable. A tree stand harness doesn't need to be discussed. It makes a person safer. But whether you have an electronic trigger in your rifle, is that something that makes you more effective as a hunter? So it's that fair chase and safety are the two main aspects of Title 34 as well as Title 58. And that's where we spend an awful lot of our time with regulations. [00:41:56] Speaker B: I can't imagine that.357 bullet in the end of an arrow is too, too safe. That scares me. I mean, it's concerning. [00:42:03] Speaker A: It was marketed for hog hunting down south, but it was crazy. [00:42:08] Speaker B: Yeah, that's one thing we never want here is wild hogs, people. I hear that all the time. And I've spent a lot of time in the Southwest. And they can info they think deer and elk create crop damage. Hogs are the worst thing I've ever seen in my life. But, you know, you talked about the Sunday hunting bill, and now legal. One of the things that came with Sunday hunting on that bill was a little bit different and higher trespass laws. Can we talk about that while we're here a little bit, because I want the folks that are listening to understand that we're taking trespass seriously. [00:42:40] Speaker A: Well, we always had taken trespass seriously, but in my career, we kind of spanned the gamut from we didn't really enforce trespass. It was more of a state police or local police matter where we've pivoted to trespassing now as being something that we do enforce. And I think it's also very important for the hunting public to know that if you trespass and harvest game, even though that game is lawfully taken, meaning you tagged it, you shot it outside of a safety zone or whatever, if you are trespassing, when that happens, that game becomes unlawful. That's a game changer for a lot of folks out there that are. That are trespassing on these properties. So it's imperative that we, as a hunter, know where we are, because you could be 100% okay. But if that landowner takes exception with you being there, what you harvested has now become an unlawful deer, and potentially you could lose your license for harvesting that deer. But the Sunday hunting bill really just tied in the fact that we want to elevate chronic trespassers. It gave a little more teeth, if you will, to our trespassing, our trespassing enforcement. I think that one was created through the state legislature, and we haven't really had the time to see how that increased trespassing is going to really apply because this is the first year that we're moving into it. But I think it's definitely a message sent that one. The Pennsylvania Game Commission takes trespassing seriously, but additionally, our state legislator takes it seriously. And. And the rights of private property are. Are important. And if an individual goes out and posts their property, you know, people should be paying attention to that. And I think, you know, I think that's a legitimate. [00:44:36] Speaker B: And, you know, with today's technology, again, whether it's, you know, handheld applications on your phone, the Internet, I mean, finding out where you are is pretty easy. I say that to folks all the time. Know where you're at, ask permission. Worst thing they can say is no, no, exactly. And, you know, you might form a bond. And I can't tell you how many times I've seen it happen where, you know, you get out and talk to your neighbor and they don't want you to hunt, and then three years later they say, hey, you know what? I thought about this. Those relationships are vital. And, you know, I, you know, we've always been a state. You look at other states the way that trespasses, you know, you get in the southern part of the United States. Like, I mean, you're going to jail in a lot of places for trespassing, and especially with a firearm and hunting. And like you said, you can do everything right. But when it becomes an illegal deer, you might be sitting out a few seasons if you're not. If you're not careful. But, you know, one of the confusions, too, that happens, it's happened here in the last couple weeks, are our fluorescent orange regulations. And while we had you here, I wanted to talk about that. And it goes all over the place. You look at social and people. To me, I mean, there's a little bit of leeway where you can get confused. But as a bow hunter, archery hunter, in an archery season, you do not have to wear fluorescent orange even when they overlap with muzzleloader and like the special firearms. Am I correct when I say that? I mean, it's recommended, but it's not the law. [00:46:03] Speaker A: Correct. And honestly, just like the sporting community, you know, our orange regulations have changed so much over the years, and you'll see a lot of confusion as it relates to what you can and can't do. If you recall 15 years ago, during the inline season, as it overlapped with the archery season season, what the orange requirements were, we would get a lot of confusion there. So I think they've been simplified quite a bit to make it much more effective for hunters to understand what their orange requirements are. But honestly, game wardens have to look at the book just the same to say, all right, what orange am I wearing today? Because this is a new paradigm, if you will, and it. And it changes back and forth. I think some of the younger wardens and also our younger hunters don't have that bias because they didn't grow up in that time when we had all the, you know, had to wear an orange hat when you were moving about during archery season, and then you could take it off and all that's been. [00:47:06] Speaker B: I remember when you had to wear it in turkey season in the spring, you know. [00:47:08] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:47:09] Speaker B: The big thing is look at the book. [00:47:11] Speaker A: Exactly. [00:47:12] Speaker B: But, you know, when there are folks out there with firearms, it's not a bad idea to carry some orange with you. [00:47:17] Speaker A: Yeah, I. As a waterfowl hunter, I am always a little concerned about that because waterfowl hunters don't have to wear fluorescent orange. So you're sneaking into your stand some or your. Your ducks duck blind sometime in the, you know, in the early morning hours. If it's during Deer season. I've always never liked that idea. Orange is always an awesome idea no matter what you're doing. So is, so is a tree stand harness. And one of the things, you know, you touched on earlier, try to stay, stay out. This is especially for young hunters. Stay out of old tree stands. Like as a kid I used to climb up on them all the time and hunt out of them. I figured nobody's here today but those ones you see built in the woods that are out of two by fours and plywood, those are dangerous and they break all the time. So stay out of them because we don't want to have to come scoop you up after you fall down and you know, break a pelvis or a leg or whatever the case may be. We really don't want to be doing that, especially during the busy hunting seasons when we're trying to get out there and check as many hunters and respond to as many incidents as we possibly can. If somebody falls, we're going to come and help them, but that's a time consuming matter. So, you know, stay, stay out of those old. [00:48:23] Speaker B: Right. Even manufactured tree stands, if they've been hanging there for a while, when they rust bolts, rust cables. The latest one I just saw, and I've been seeing this on social in a lot of places, people leaving their stands out there and the cables, like wherever they're connected to the stand, the stand just falls apart when they get in it. And you know, make sure you check your stuff before you get up there anytime. It doesn't take 20ft to hurt something. You can fall four feet and break your neck. I mean, it just doesn't, it doesn't take that much. But when we look at the vision Rod, and for you as the colonel and leading the agency's law enforcement efforts, you know, in, you know, for the next five, 10 years, you know, do you have any vision on, on things that you're, that you want to see. That's a passion of yours. When you, as you take this agency's law enforcement, you know, efforts to the level that or the vision that you're looking at. That's a deep question. I know. [00:49:13] Speaker A: Yeah, there's a lot of layers to that onion. First thing I would say is that I'm super honored to be in this position. The men and women that are game wardens in Pennsylvania are some of the finest. No, not some. They are the finest conservation officers in the country. I've never seen more dedicated and driven individuals than the people that work for us. I really am humbled to be able to say that I'm the colonel of this agency and it's overwhelming to be able to say that. And I really, really appreciate how much these men and women bring to the table. They do it every day. They get up and they drive forward. They go out there when it's snowing and icy. They stand alone the side of an interstate with semis blowing by because they have to put down an injured deer. They go on rescues and reunite families. It's just, I'm honored and awestruck to be sitting here to say that I'm the colonel of them. So, yes, that's the first thing that I wanted to say regarding that I do have ideas. The question is, as I said, there's a lot of levels to that, a lot of layers to that. I, I want to hear from the game wardens here as to what their needs are, what, what areas they need to, they think we can improve upon. You know, when you take a new job, you don't want to come in and change everything. You want to sit back and observe and say, you know, let me see how everything works and, you know, how sausage is made and then, then figure out whether or not we want to change the recipe. And right now, having this position for under a month, you know, I don't know even what's in the recipe, let alone what needs to be changed. [00:51:00] Speaker B: And just for the record, week one or week two, you spent a couple of days duck hunting. So, you know, we get a lot of folks that say, well, they don't even hunt well. I mean, obviously you're here for the passion as well. [00:51:11] Speaker A: I, I am, that's true. And I felt a little bad about because I'm sorry, I shouldn't have brought that. No, it's fine. I assume a new role in a leadership position and then take a week off to go duck hunting. And I thought, oh, people are going to perceive that as like, look at it, he gets promoted and goes hunting. [00:51:27] Speaker B: Well, the other good story that just happened recently too is we have senior leadership meetings and right now, new building and capacity. We have it at an off site location. And your boss didn't even tell you where the meeting was because I was there when he called you the other day to come. [00:51:41] Speaker A: Well, he did. And to be fair, he did. I just had my time screwed up, unfortunately. But yeah, I think, you know, listening to what the wardens need, what they want, making their job safer, however that may be, there's a multitude of ways we can do that. Whether it's equipment Purchases, whether it's training, whether it's just what we require from them, if we can streamline those processes to make, make them more effective and safer. You know, that's one of my driving forces. But I also think it's very important. It's always been mantra for me is that I am not the smartest person in the room, but there are people in the room that are far smarter than me. And communicating your ideas is how we get better as we move forward and come up with the new initiatives and new strategies. You know, we, we need to get a bottom up discussion going. If there's a game warden out there that has an idea that, that might improve our operations, I want to hear it. I want to hear devices or, you know, methodologies that, that are going to make us more effective and also at the same time, you know, incorporating that into how we interact with our hunting public so that we can be more effective and we can be faster. It's incredible to me the amount of technology wardens use now. You know, when I started, it was a piece of paper you wrote everything down on. Now they can scan a license and they can do all that high end, high speed stuff, but it only really works as long as you have cell service or something along those lines. And we rolled out a new prosecution system recently and you know, we've been struggling with the bugs. They're getting fixed, we're doing better. But that's a perfect example of that communication because every Tuesday, one of the captains, Captain Sheets, sets up a meeting for the game wardens to teams in and say, hey, this isn't working for me. Can we fix it? And we've been chipping away at the problems. It's gotten better. But that's the type of mindset that really makes us effective. Our wardens are, as I said, they're incredibly well trained, very well equipped, and they're just a great group of people. [00:54:01] Speaker B: They are. And they work hard at their job every day. I love what you said about technology. It's like any business out there, you're always learning. That's one thing that I love about the agency. We're always trying to do better for wildlife, for hunting, for outdoor recreation, for whatever that reason is. We're always trying to be, be as cutting edge as we can. Obviously, in the private world out there, some things can move a little faster, but I commend you on that. And taking it from today, let's put it in reverse. And usually when we have an officer or a game warden on, we try to get some kind of story. Because game wardens have some great stories and I'd love to hear a throwback from you. And especially you talked about your right out of the academy went into special investigation. I don't you to have to break my arms or anything after this is done. But if you have something you could share that pretty special. You did tell me one the other day. And which one was that? About meeting your wife. I mean, I thought that was pretty awesome. Yeah, but you know, everybody has a. When you look at field notes in game news, most popular part of game news, people want to read about those stories. And every game warden I've ever met in my life has a good story, especially from a throwback. So if you could, if you could think of one. It doesn't. Sure, we would love to hear it. [00:55:17] Speaker A: I can, I can go back to the one I told you the other day. And I, I think, you know, interestingly enough when I started my career I went into our special investigation. So that's, that's essentially working in an undercover capacity. And you know, I didn't look anything like I look today. [00:55:31] Speaker B: Did you have long hair? [00:55:32] Speaker A: Long hair. I, I was rocking the mullet. Had the big beard. [00:55:36] Speaker B: The mullet's back. [00:55:37] Speaker A: Well, yeah, that'll never go away. So I had worked a case for about five years and got very close with the individuals. They were doing a lot of unlawful stuff and we were building a case and getting lots and lots of charges. And when that case finally was adjudicated, when it was taken down, we ended up having around 22 individuals with 122 charges, something along that lines. And as far as I know, this has never happened before in the history of our agency. But that case as the undercover operative, generally those happen all across the commonwealth. But in this particular scenario I worked the investigation, we closed the investigation and then I immediately transferred in as the first field warden for that district. So I also prosecuted the case. And that was interesting because these are people that honestly, when you work in an undercover capacity, are they outlaws? They were violating the law? Yes. Were they bad people? Not necessarily. But when you infiltrate with people like that, when you do a long term investigation, it can be hurtful, it can hurt their feelings and that cuts very deep. And here I am now living in the community with the folks that I had been basically pulling a ruse on for the past five years. So needless to say, I was a little paranoid about that. And one of the individuals that I worked there was friendly with another person and I'll get to that later. But I end up as a new district warden getting set up by my deputy on a blind date with this woman. And I come to find out that her brother is very good friends with one of the individuals that was involved in that investigation. And the whole time we're on the blind date, I'm thinking, is this a setup? Is she going to take me out into the woods and there's going to be a whole bunch of fellows waiting to beat the tar out of me? So I was a little paranoid initially, but it kind of worked out. We got married, so dang sure worked out. It worked out pretty well. She wasn't setting me up. Maybe it was a long game. I'm not 100% sure that tells you. [00:57:59] Speaker B: How small the world can be. But again, we appreciate that. We appreciate everything you've done in your career and we're excited to have you across the aisle from us here in Harrisburg and working together. When things need to go out there in the news, I can tell you that our constituents, our hunters and public are going to see your face more often when you have to talk to them. That's one thing that we're trying to initiate is when it's a law enforcement issue to have you in front of there to tell us what we're doing as an agency. And I think that's exciting. Is there anything that you want to tell the folks that are listening before we wrap it up? It's been awesome. First of all, thank you for joining us this morning. I know you're busy. I think this is great when we can get out in front of a lot of these issues. [00:58:43] Speaker A: Thanks for having me. [00:58:44] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:58:44] Speaker A: The folks that are out there listening, thanks for watching. The one takeaway from today's discussion is just basically, your game warden is a part of your community. Treat them as you would your neighbor and they're there to help you. They're there to make you successful and they're there to stop the people that want to cheat. And really, that's. That's the takeaway. [00:59:10] Speaker B: Awesome. [00:59:11] Speaker A: Thank you. [00:59:11] Speaker B: Yeah. Thank you. And for folks out there, again, November. We're excited. It's that time of year. Be safe out there. Strap yourself in. And if you have any questions, you know, always feel free to call us on our toll free 833PGC hunt. 833PGC wild. You get our dispatch. You know, obviously, if you know, you can look at ogt Operation G Game Thief, you can check that out on our website, get the numbers there. If you see something, you got to say something out there because again, like Rod said, wildlife, we all are responsible for wildlife in this state. And, you know, we all need to work together as much as possible. But thanks for tuning in to Call the outdoors, and best of luck to all of y' all out this fall. And we'll see you next time right here at the Pennsylvania Game Commission on call the Outdoor.