Ep. 72 | Public Land on Mission: PA’s State Game Lands System

[00:00:00] Speaker A: State parks and things like that are really designed to do something completely different than what the Game Commission is trying to do. [00:00:06] Speaker B: Hunters, we're leading the charge in conservation. We're the original conservationists and hunters dollars bought the lands and hunters dollars continue to provide that management for future generations when we're going. [00:00:17] Speaker C: Currently we stand at 314 individual state game lands. They're located in all but one county in Pennsylvania, so 66 of 67 counties right around just over 1.5 million acres currently under management as state game lands across the common. [00:00:37] Speaker B: Well, it's hard to believe that we're already in the new hunting license year hunting license went on sale a couple weeks ago and. And the excitement's in the air. But today we have an awesome podcast coming to you for here for Kali Outdoors. We're going to talk about the state game land system and something here in Pennsylvania that we're so lucky to have and sometimes we take it for granted, but we're going to get in depth and talk about a lot of the inner workings of what happens out there on our gameland system. And we've got two great special guests today. We got Rodney Mee from the North Central region. He's a land management group supervisor and also one of our state game wardens. And from here in Harrisburg, Curtis Noel, who is the section chief for the Public Lands Division. And I'm going to turn it right over to Rodney and let him introduce himself. And you know how he got to work here at the Game Commission. [00:01:21] Speaker A: Yeah, I had kind of a varied journey to get here. I started out in Penn State, program for wildlife, took some time off in the private sector to raise a family, put it together. When I was 29, I got into the academy to become a warden. Was in York county for a couple of years, was so busy, decided to head up to the big woods, up to Wellsboro, up to Tyo county and spent 16 years as a warden, then switched to land Management in 2017. So from that period on, luckily we can't do, unfortunately we can't do that anymore in this agency. But it was a wonderful transition to go from law enforcement into managing the game lands and doing something maybe would last more than just a couple days to lifetimes. [00:02:06] Speaker B: I'm excited about this. We're going to talk about a lot that happens behind those gates and day to day stuff. Sometimes management's hard to see. That's what we want to talk about today. And I'm going to come over here to Curtis and talk about how you got to the agency here and, you know, obviously here in Harrisburg, but you're. You got your hand on the heartbeat of what's happening all over the state. [00:02:29] Speaker C: Yeah. Appreciate that intro, Matt. Happy to be here. So, like Matt said, my name is Curtis Knoll, public land section chief within the bureau of Wildlife Habitat Management here in Harrisburg. I've worked for the agency full time for right around 13 years. Actually started as a forestry intern in the southeast region back in 2011 and 2012. So that's kind of how I got my foot in the door, so to speak, with pgc. Actually have a forest science degree from Penn State University and then also a wood products and wildlife science minors there from Penn State. Spent most of my time as a forester for about nine years in the southeast region before coming into Harrisburg here about three years ago now. So my job's pretty varied. Just like it kind of mirrors the job class of a land manager out there who's working on the game lands, kind of my main focus is working with land managers like Rodney to update our management plans for each game land. So that's kind of the core of what I do. [00:03:29] Speaker B: That's awesome. And so both of you all are Penn State fans, I assume? [00:03:33] Speaker C: Oh, yeah, without doubt. Okay. Exactly. [00:03:36] Speaker B: About wrestling, not a whole lot. [00:03:38] Speaker A: I mean, I couldn't ever cut weight, so never. [00:03:44] Speaker B: When you look across the country, though, you know, Penn State, obviously, football's so strong, but their wrestling program is tremendous. And a lot of those wrestlers hunt. And I mean, it's pretty. To me, that's an unbelievable sport. We get into that later. But let's start talking about game lands because, I mean, when you think about, like I said earlier, what we have here with over 1.5 million acres that are, you know, that are mission centric to our mission, you know, there's other, you know, our sister agency with state Forest, but the state game land system is unique. And when you go across the country, we're the only state that has something like this. And as a hunter, as an outdoorsman, we should celebrate that because it's the hunter's dollars that really put these things on the ground. And, you know, for the 25 game lands, or the first 25 gamelands, one through 25 were refuges. They were put in place for wildlife. And that's when you look at gamelands, wildlife is first. And, you know, a lot of folks don't realize that. And I mean, let's talk about gamelands 25. I mean, the very first state game lands. And you know, how. How that Model has got us to where we're at today. [00:04:51] Speaker A: Yeah, Unfortunately, I don't have gamelands 25 in my group, so I'm not intimately familiar with that piece of. Piece of property. I don't know. Curtis, are you more familiar with specific? [00:05:00] Speaker C: Yeah, that would have been the. The first actual, what we now call state game lands that was purchased in 1920, which I believe would have been right around 6200 acres outside the city of St. Mary's in Elk County. Before that, kind of like Matt was touching on, there would have been game refuges that would have started somewhere around 1898. So a lot of those would have been on private lands, I believe, and also state forests. And you actually see some relics of that pass out on the landscape today. I can think up along Route 44 along the Clinton Lycoming county line where there's some roads called game reserve road that are now on sprawl state forest. So those were kind of the initial, you know, steps to build the gameland system. And then, you know, the. The official start of the state game line system would have been in 1920, so a little over 100 years ago. So it's definitely a century in the making to get us to today's 1.5 million acres. [00:05:51] Speaker B: I think about that. It's kind of crazy because I'm. I'm a lot older than you guys, and, you know, to think about, like, 50 years before I was born is when all this started. And where we're at today, it really isn't that long ago. [00:06:03] Speaker C: And without a doubt, no, it's a [00:06:04] Speaker B: blink of the eye. And back in those days, you know, market hunting and think, you know, the resource wasn't there, you know, and I can remember stories, even here in Dauphin county, when somebody would see a deer track and, like, the whole town would come to look at that track and look where we're at today. And a lot of that. A lot of that goes back to everything that we do, you know, through managed hunting and in, you know, the habitat work that you all are doing out there. But how many game lands are we up to nowadays? [00:06:30] Speaker C: Yeah, so currently we stand at 314 individual state game lands. They're located in all but one county in Pennsylvania. So 66 of 67 counties, like you said, Matt, right around just over 1.5 million acres currently under management as state game lands across the commonwealth. I'm not sure how in depth I should get here. [00:06:49] Speaker B: Well, I think that's. That's something to think about. Like, we have. We have A game land system in every county except one that's pretty strong. And you know, when you get in Rodney, we get into your part of the world. I mean in the big woods, there's a lot going on up there for sure. [00:07:03] Speaker A: Tremendous, tremendous acreage and just amazing varying types of habitat that are out there in the landscape that we have control over and can offer to the hunters. It's pretty neat. [00:07:14] Speaker B: And some big tracks up there in that country. I mean, and when you think about, I did this quick math in my head before this morning. When you really think about our gameland system, every licensed hunter has 2 acres roughly that could be theirs. When you think about that, and it doesn't sound like a lot, but that's huge. That's bigger than this, it's bigger than the state of Delaware in our game land system. That's a lot of land. And definitely, you know, when you get back and stuff, some of the stuff that we talk about today in the management, you know, there's areas that, that there is not a lot of wildlife, especially deer and things like that. But when you get back and look at the habitat work that you all do on the ground, there's not a game lands you can't go to in this state and not find a little nook and cranny that has some really good hunting opportunities. [00:07:57] Speaker A: Yes. [00:07:58] Speaker C: Yeah, definitely can take some shoe leather and you know, getting out there and scouting. But without a doubt there's, there's resource all over the gameland system. Without a doubt. [00:08:06] Speaker B: One of the biggest things that we hear out there, whether it's social or, you know, we go to a show or whatever, a lot of folks don't understand the difference between game lands, state game lands, state forest and state parks and you know, our sister agencies that lands open to hunting, a lot of them. And if we could just dive into that a little bit. [00:08:26] Speaker C: Yeah, I can, I can touch on it from kind of the statewide programmatical level. You know, obviously the biggest difference between game lands and state parks and state forests would be that game lands, you know, by our state statutes is the focus is much more narrow in scope. So our primary focus, like Matt said, is to manage wildlife and their habitats on those game lands while also providing abundant public hunting and fur taking opportunities. Whereas if you look at, you know, our sister agency over at DCNR, which they manage, you know, upwards of 2 million acres now across the state, their, their focus is more multiple use focus. So looking at things like recreation, like hiking trails, you know, biking trails, things of that nature where on game lands we deem those uses more of a secondary recreation. Because like you said, wildlife is the focus. [00:09:15] Speaker B: Right. And when you add motorized anything to wildlife, it's not, it's not good for them. [00:09:19] Speaker C: Without a doubt. [00:09:20] Speaker B: Look at states like Colorado and you know, some of the studies have been out there with, you know, I think it's Estes park and you know how it affected the calves from the elk being born and all of a sudden their population's down. We're keeping our, our places wild, especially when you look in your area. For sure. [00:09:36] Speaker A: Yeah. You know, my wife, we have a bit of a property and she's always is looking at it like a park. Oh, look at all that down and woody debris. We need to clean that up. And like, I'm like, no, that's habitat. We need to have stuff like that. So, you know, that's just one thing that, you know, state parks and things like that are really designed to do something completely different than what the Game Commission is trying to do. [00:09:59] Speaker B: Yeah, their mission is different than ours. I mean we're, we're entrusted with managing the wildlife and their habitats, you know, especially where we can on the gameland system. Let's talk about that for a second since you hit on that, because it's, it's something that lives in my blood a little bit too. Like, you know, if you have your, your area timbered or you cut a tree and the treetop that falls down there, how important is that treetop to habitat? [00:10:22] Speaker A: It's important to a lot of different components of, you know, the ecosystem. So, you know, certain species, they need to have a lot of that down and woody debris. Other ones don't like it because they're gonna, they can't see around it. But a lot of the small mammals, fishers, things like that just really thrive where there's a lot of downwood, debris. So clean, quote, unquote, cleaning up your property sometimes is the worst thing you can do for wildlife. You know, building, you know, what we call rabbitat, which is, you know, brush piles. Rabbit. [00:10:55] Speaker B: Yeah, I love it. [00:10:56] Speaker A: Rabbitat works out really well. That's, that's a age old term that came, came to me when I started at the agency. So yeah, things like that that you can focus on can really improve, especially for certain species. Not just deer. Deer benefit from so much that you do on the landscape, but there's so many other species that will benefit and come in and utilize that. Whatever you're doing for deer. [00:11:21] Speaker B: Right, right. Oh, I mean, you look at all game and non game species, there's always a benefit out there and we're looking at that whole, that whole big picture. I mean, that's what we're looking at when we do these management projects. You know, one thing I've noticed when you're trying to get regeneration too, because of deer, you know, when you leave that habitat on the ground, it allows the next generation to come up a lot easier because they can't get to it. I mean, just simple things like that that we don't pay attention to a lot of times. But I'm kind of on your wife's side. I like, like my stuff looking a little bit clean, but I know it's, I know it's probably not the right thing to do. And you know, when we talk about the mission of the agency, it's so important that, you know, and we live by it every day and you know, the management of wildlife and their habitats. And let's talk about some of the things that go on on the game land system when you're looking at managing that habitat and some things that people might go in there and look at the landscape and not realize what's happening. This is a loaded question. I know there's a million things that are going on. Let's talk about some of the things we do and how we design each game lands differently. [00:12:24] Speaker C: Yeah, I would say so. A lot of what goes into that is kind of the game lands landscape context. So where it's located with the surrounding landscape like a game lands down here in Cumberland county, like gamelands 169, that's more in a, you know, agricultural or farmland landscape is going to be a little bit different than working on a game lands, you know, up in the north central region in a heavily forested area like Rodney's working in every day. So whereas that Cumberland county game lands might have a more, you know, grassland songbird approach as far as looking to have grassland connectivity and removal of trees and things of that nature. Up in Rodney's neck of the woods, he may be more focused on, you know, cool season forage plots like clovers and other things like that kind of interspersed or intermixed into that forested landscape. So it can. A lot of what goes into it is, you know, what species could potentially be there or are we currently there on that game lands? [00:13:19] Speaker B: Right. Are you in, you have some of the elk range in your area? [00:13:22] Speaker A: Elk sometimes come into my area, but I'm a little far north. [00:13:26] Speaker B: Okay. [00:13:27] Speaker A: Just kind of out of where they, they set up shop. I got you none of our game lands really have. There's potential, and if they make it there, there's going to be a lot of problems with private landowners that probably would occur that you'd have to overcome. But we're close. Well, that's someday. [00:13:45] Speaker B: That's what a lot of folks, you know, when we start getting excited about elk and, you know, folks want them all over the state, but they don't realize the reason that that range is where it's at, you know, and staying away from public and staying away from the problems that could occur. But, yeah, you're definitely close, for sure. In Tioga County. For sure. [00:14:02] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:14:02] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, you know, when we look at the primary mission of our agency, like we talked about, and, you know, how important. Let's just talk about if the game lands, we didn't do anything to it, what would happen to it? [00:14:20] Speaker C: Yeah, the biggest thing, and I think that's one of the points we're going to touch on later. You know, in Pennsylvania, kind of that climax ecological community, for lack of a better term, is closed canopy forest. If there's not some type of planned disturbance that's occurring out in the landscape, Obviously Pennsylvania is home to many species that don't just thrive in late successional forest or older growth forest. So that's kind of where the actual gamelands planning and the implementation that Rodney and the habitat crews are working out on every day comes into play, where you need to have intentional disturbances at relatively short return intervals. Just meaning in a lot of cases, when it comes to, like, you know, field or herbaceous opening management, a lot of times that the habitat crews are going to be disturbing them in some form almost on an annual basis. That could include things like mowing with some type of rotary mower or brush hog, you know, targeted herbicide treatments, as well as prescribed fire and other activities. [00:15:18] Speaker B: And so many times you said closed canopy, and I'm just going to take it down to my level. That means getting some sunlight on the ground. Without a doubt. [00:15:26] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:15:26] Speaker C: Yep. [00:15:28] Speaker B: The first trip that I ever made when I came to work with the agency was with, you know, Deputy Director Gustafson now. But we went. I went on a forestry trip and like, I thought I knew what I was looking at a little bit. I didn't know anything. And when you say disturbance, I mean, biggest thing is when you say disturbance, it looks like a storm went through or a tornado went through. And I guess years and years ago, Wildfire was really controlling a lot of the habitat management that happened here, like it does out west. I mean, from my understanding, if I'm not, am I correct on that? [00:15:59] Speaker C: Yeah, without a doubt. Like a lot of the research shows, obviously there would have been more grazers in the landscape, you know, before European settlement in the 1600s and 1700s, back [00:16:09] Speaker B: when dinosaurs lived here. [00:16:10] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:16:13] Speaker C: So that would have came into play as well as, you know, Native American cultural practices too. Obviously they were, you know, doing similar practices that we do today here in the Great Valley where we sit with agriculture and things of that nature. So, you know, I know a lot of research right now, especially at the University of Tennessee, touches on a lot of what is open today in Pennsylvania. Was probably open previously. Now obviously we'll never know because we weren't there. [00:16:37] Speaker B: Right. [00:16:37] Speaker C: But it's, it definitely was a varied landscape over time. [00:16:40] Speaker A: Right. Some of that fire history sits in Tioh county, which is part of my group, which was that Missouri study where they came and cut the, you know, the pines that were still left. One pine, I don't think it was alive. I'm pretty sure it was one of those cat faces that were dead, dated back to 1492. And they actually have the history. Were able to put enough logs together to show and it's pretty neat. If you ever get online and take a look at that study, you actually see a visual of where all the fires were in and around Tioga, the actual town, on the hills, on the gamelands, the current game lands. So it's pretty neat to see that. And it was every, you know, 15, 20 years, there were big fires that would cover that area. [00:17:22] Speaker B: Right. [00:17:23] Speaker A: We have good oak forests there still. And hopefully we can continue to put fire there to do replicate some of that stuff. [00:17:30] Speaker B: Right. When you, when, when y' all look at something and this is hard for anybody to fathom, you're not looking for next year. I mean, you're looking, Your vision is 20, 30, 40, 50 years out to see what that forest is going to look like. And it's hard for any of us to do that. You know, we want, we live in this world of instant gratification, but we have to leave it better than we found it. I mean, that's the way I look at those things. [00:17:52] Speaker A: I think as a warden, that was the biggest transition I had to go from that daily jumping out of the pocket rush after some bad guy to looking 3 and 4 and 5 and 10 and 15 years down the road because habitat needs that to get to where you want to go. Sometimes it's a hundred year cycle. [00:18:10] Speaker B: Right. [00:18:11] Speaker A: That's a big mindset. Change. [00:18:12] Speaker B: Right. And as hunters, we're leading the charge in conservation. We're the original conservationists and yeah, we all want to go out there and have success, but like we're doing a job out there at managing wildlife, just like managing the habitat for wildlife. What kind of brush do you jump out of in Tiger County? What was it? [00:18:28] Speaker A: Pucker brush. [00:18:28] Speaker B: Pucker brush. Okay, Pucker brush, define that. [00:18:33] Speaker A: Anything that wants to grab ahold of you, no one wants to be in there and that's a great place to hide. [00:18:36] Speaker B: Okay, perfect. I'll remember that one. You know, and we hit on this a little bit earlier about our primary mission or the primary function of game lands. And I'd like to reiterate that because when you look at the game lands, I mean, again, that confusion. Let's talk about the primary focus again of state game lands. [00:18:56] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, without a doubt. Like I said at the top of the show, wildlife and their habitats and also that public access for hunting and fur taking opportunities. So that kind of takes the paramount when Rodney or another land manager are working on developing a management plan for a gamelands that's kind of right there in the forefront making those habitat management decisions on a daily basis based off the species they're managing the game lands for, which can include a large gamut of species. Obviously a lot of times, you know, game species are kind of at the focus, but those, you know, different management strategies are going to, you know, affect habitat in a positive way for all kinds of, you know, songbirds, different small mammals and things of that nature. So obviously as the game commission, you know, we're managing 480 species of birds and mammals that we're charged with management of. So all those decisions, you know, weigh heavily on, you know, kind of the result of that. [00:19:52] Speaker B: Right, absolutely. And you, you talked about bad guys earlier and I'm sure in your part of the world, you know, somebody's riding their ATV on state forest and is permitted and all of a sudden they cross into a game lands and. [00:20:03] Speaker A: Right. And. [00:20:04] Speaker B: And they're going to get a ticket. Yeah, but there's a reason for that. It's because of trying to keep our areas wild. And you know, the more it's not that we hate them or anything like that, it's just like our mission is centric. [00:20:16] Speaker C: It just doesn't. [00:20:16] Speaker A: Yeah, very different. Very different mission. Yeah, yeah. And those types of impacts have impact, have negative impact and hence why the, all the pesky rules and regulations that are different compared to state forest and state parks and things like that. Which have that drive, which maybe we're going to touch on here in a bit. What the difference is. Sure, it's very diametrically opposed sometimes to what we do for wildlife. [00:20:41] Speaker B: Right. And when you look at, you know, the big picture is, you know, a lot of our gates are closed. You know, we're going to talk about that in a little bit, but there's a reason for that. It's not that we don't. We're trying to get access to the best places for, you know, or the best access for folks, but the reason those gates are closed and the reason that we encourage people to walk in is to keep it wild. I mean, that's the, that's the biggest thing that I can think of. And it does that. I mean, if you're, if you're willing to put in some extra time, like I said earlier, you can find little nooks and crannies on any of our 300 plus game lands that you can have a good hunt on or a good time. And again, we're fortunate for that. We're fortunate. Some game lands have a lot more impact, especially closer to Harrisburg here. Our game lands get a lot of people out there, and pressure is a whole nother caveat when you come into the hunting season. I mean, sometimes we don't think about pressure and what it does to wildlife. And you got to use that as part of your play as well in your part of the world. You can get away from it all in some of those places. [00:21:42] Speaker A: You can. The weird thing is though, when you get into more remote places, they're less used to people. So that we're like, down here in York county, we were all worried about eagles nesting and stay away from them. Well, they're so used to people, it didn't matter so much. But up where we're at, it does matter because they're just not used to that interface. So small disturbances can actually have big impact. So. So those are some of the things that are different in certain parts of the state. [00:22:08] Speaker B: Yeah. Even county to county things different. Yeah. I mean, even the landscape and the species of trees and the species of grasses, I mean, everything changes. We're so diverse here in pa. It's pretty amazing. [00:22:19] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah, without a doubt. Yeah. Sometimes it seems like, you know, Pennsylvania is pretty monolithic as far as habitat types, but like Matt touched on there, very, very diverse, you know, across the state from the glaciated plateaus up in the northwest or northeast parts of the the state, you know, to the central Pennsylvania with some of the, you know, big woods types of landscapes that are on game lands and other surrounding lands, you know, all the way down here into the, the more traditional, you know, farm game type habitats where you're in agricultural valleys. So it definitely can range. [00:22:48] Speaker B: And upper Rodney lives. You need one leg longer than the other to get up a lot of those, that's for sure. [00:22:52] Speaker C: To be able to walk those side hills. [00:22:53] Speaker A: Yeah, either going up or you're going down. [00:22:56] Speaker B: Right. And the good or bad thing is the animal, it doesn't bother the animals. That's where they live and they're used to it every day. And yeah, it's when I have gotten the opportunity to hunt up there, it's amazing. Like places you find turkeys in the middle of those steep, rocky, just nasty stuff. And you think, how does anything live here? [00:23:13] Speaker C: But I mean, that's their house, they make a living. [00:23:15] Speaker B: That's right, for sure. Let's talk about public access. Let's talk about roads and the road system. Because we've invested a lot into the infrastructure of our game lands for access for managing purposes over the past five or six years. It's been an initiative, obviously with, you know, the gas and oil income that's coming in, We've been able to really invest in that infrastructure. And if we could talk about that road system, you know, throughout the state and how important it is for us and how important it is for our public to know what's going on out there. [00:23:50] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, without a doubt. So like Matt said, there's been a lot of investment in those areas over the last couple of years to improve access to the game lands, both for the public and also for what we call administrative access. So access to be able to go out and do habitat management work out on the game lands. So our roads are kind of split into a couple of different classes, you know, including open roads which are open to the public year round. You actually may run into some of those up in Rodney's neck of the woods. Oftentimes those year round open roads connect with dcnr, state forest roadways, state park roads, things of that nature. So there are also seasonal roads which are open in the fall during major hunting seasons, typically two weeks prior to archery season and closed two weeks after the late deer seasons or front lock seasons. So those provide more access into interior portions of the game lands. But like you said earlier, it's kind of a balance. So you know, decisions, you know, that, that Rodney and other land managers are making about which roads get open during the hunting seasons. It's kind of a balance of hunter experience, like you said, having some of those remote areas for folks to be able to get away from it all and also providing, you know, ample access opportunities. [00:25:06] Speaker A: Yeah, those seasonal access roads are probably the most controversial because they affect so many of our hunters in different ways. And what we usually try to use as our guiding principle for those is access to kill deer. Because that's how we manage our habitat. If you have too many deer, you can't manage it at all. So we want to gain access there. Plus, you know, the baby boomers are not getting any younger, and they were the backbone of our hunter public for decades and decades. I mean, they used to be the bird dogs for the old guys. Now they're the old guys that are out there and they're still an important part of our hunting public. [00:25:46] Speaker B: Oh, absolutely. [00:25:47] Speaker A: So they need to have better access. And it's their heart as they get to that point where it's harder and harder for them to access. We need to try to provide that. But yet we still want to balance that young guy that wants that hunt. That's probably my complaint crowd for opening roads is, man, I used to go back there and I had it all by myself. Well, I understand that. So we got to balance that. So we're always trying to play towards those things. So maybe open a lot for deer, maybe not so much for other species so you can have those wild hunts for other species. So we're always trying to balance that out. And money to have that road good enough to get there has been a blessing over the last six, eight years where we've had all that gas and oil money to be able to so that the sportsman didn't have to pay for it, it was tremendous. It was just a once in a lifetime opportunity that we were able to build out infrastructure we hadn't been able to for the life of the agency, really. So it's been pretty neat. Very tiring, though, to try to build [00:26:44] Speaker B: roads and stuff like that. Well, let's talk about that just real quick. And I don't want to get on the wildlife management side too much, but you know, from, from when you're looking at the habitat work that you're doing and you hit it, you hit it there, you know, quick on, on having too many deer and, you know, the last three or four years, you know, our antlerless allocation has gone up and how important it is to make sure that deer herd is in check. For the work that we, we got going on out there, I think it's good that we just hit on that one more time. [00:27:11] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. It's really important. You know, you can see areas that you can do habitat work. And then the deer come in and just like eat it right off. You know, fires are a big one that we're starting to realize that if you don't have that deer in check and you put fire on the ground to do amazing things, the deer just [00:27:28] Speaker B: eat it right off. [00:27:28] Speaker A: And I think, you know, the agency is really starting to focus more into that to see what, you know, to help us keep our deer in check, not remove the deer, but keep it in check enough to grow that. And I think us opening the right roads helps a lot too, because if you get hunter access, they'll be. If they have to drag a deer up mountain to get out, they're not going to shoot the deer down there. But if they can park down here and drag it down out, you know, they're going to shoot the deer then. [00:28:01] Speaker B: Right. [00:28:01] Speaker A: Maybe. And that might help. [00:28:02] Speaker B: And that's a, that's a great point. It's not just going in there and be able to hunt. You also have the back end of getting out of there. And that's, you know, the more birthdays you have, the more that part of it stinks. To be honest with you. I'm like. And if you don't have someone young coming up, right. Like you said, I grew up as a bird dog. That was, that was my job when I was a kid. And. And you know, if you don't raise a new bird dog, you're not going to have that person to help you get those animals out. That's a great point, Rodney. Thanks for that one. But you know, when you say administrative roads, you know, and this is for a lot of folks that, that question us all the time on social or whatever. Let's talk about what an administrative road is as well. [00:28:39] Speaker C: Yeah. So administrative road, in plain terms, as far as what you're going to see when you arrive at a game lands parking area is going to be a gated road where it's access on foot only to be able to access the game lands. So like Rodney said, kind of touching back to that balance, just having those additional opportunities for folks to be able to get away, you know, from, you know, other hunters when they're out there on the game lands, but also having that access to be able to get out and do habitat management. Working on the game lands for the habitat crews, for the foresters, for the land managers is a big part of that also. In some cases, if that road is gated in your local area, like Rodney had touched on some of the road improvement work that's occurred over the last several years. In some cases, that road might not be in good enough condition for public travel. And so some cases, so, you know, could be a grassy surface, you know, could be, have some type of habitat on there that's beneficial for wildlife, like some sort of, you know, grasses and forbs and things of that nature and wildflowers. So. [00:29:41] Speaker B: Or if it, if it rains, you get stuck, you get stuck to the frame. [00:29:43] Speaker C: That's a great point too. You can have a tendency to get a little bit slimy, especially if you get some of those rainy deer seasons or snowy deer seasons like we, we tend to get, especially up in Rodney's area. [00:29:52] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:29:53] Speaker A: So yeah, a lot of those roads end up being haul roads for our forestry side of the house. So our foresters set up a lot of habitat work that we aren't part of as a land manager, but they need to get timber out or get operations in. So they utilize these roads often in the wintertime when there's not much impact because everything's frozen and hard. But if that road was open in the fall for hunters to ride back and forth, you know, you pretty much get that W shaped rut and create all sorts of problems on that roadway [00:30:26] Speaker B: and, you know, hitting on forestry. And we won't go too far into it, but like, you know, our forestry model is a little different than your average thought process. I mean, we're forest, our forestry is for wildlife and we just talk about the difference in that than your normal forestry practices. [00:30:42] Speaker C: Yeah, without a doubt. So like Matt said, you know, wildlife is the focus of all the forest management activities that go on out on the game lands. So a lot of times, if you're talking more private lands, forestry, you know, there could be more of a focus on money driven, you know, decisions as far as when to harvest timber and things like that. But yeah, the Game Commission's foresters are a really, really great bunch to work with. And every decision they make, wildlife's at the forefront in a lot of cases to even potentially, you know, making less revenue and things of that nature. [00:31:12] Speaker B: Sure. [00:31:12] Speaker C: So it can definitely be a long term trajectory. You know, a lot of times they're looking, you know, 10, 20, 30 years plus out in advance as far as, you know, what that forest sustained is going to look like and kind of how it fits into the landscape and interfaces with surrounding fields and different habitat types out there. [00:31:28] Speaker B: I know one of my first trips, I walked out and I'm like, why is there three dead trees left out there? Like, why would somebody do that? And didn't realize the importance of those dead trees to wildlife? [00:31:39] Speaker C: Definitely, yeah, yeah. For cavity nesting birds and things of that nature, to have what we call snags or standing dead trees out in the landscape is very, very important. [00:31:46] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. So signs, you're probably tired of hearing that word, aren't you? [00:31:53] Speaker C: A little bit, yeah. I sometimes have some flashbacks. [00:31:56] Speaker B: Let's talk about some of the new signage. And we've again been able to update a lot of the things that are happening out there and that kind of falls right in your wheelhouse. [00:32:04] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. So, you know, working with marketing folks in your bureau, Matt, over the last couple years there's been some updates to what we call our SGL welcome sign State Gamelands welcome signs. So traditionally those were made out of wood which did last very, very long. But you know, 10 to 20 years is the expected life of those. So more recently there's been a transition to high density plastic panels that kind of formalize the state gamelands brand as wildlife management areas. You know, because in a lot of cases, you know, especially with user groups that the Game Commission might not interface with as much, you know, like, like hikers and other recreation folks, they might not quite have that understanding what, what game means kind of that old English term that was carried over here to the states so branding them as wildlife management areas and also representing what game lands you're actually entering. So as far as some other signage updates and I think we might touch on it a little bit with some of our secondary recreational trails out on game lands. There's also, you know, new trail markers and road markers that you'll be seeing out on game lands this fall that we recently updated that kind of indicates, you know, what activities are permitted where out on the game lands. [00:33:16] Speaker B: I know one thing that we saw when we first got here too is like, and it's incorporated in our, is the new branding. Like you're going to see our logo on state game land. So you know it's us because our old signs and you know, D.C. and our signs looked identical. A lot of folks were confused and there's a whole, from the law enforcement side, there's a whole different set of laws that happen on game lands. And I'm sure that in your career you've ran across so many folks that had no idea. [00:33:39] Speaker A: Right? Yeah, yeah. That a lot of that is education, trying to get, you know, a lot of Times you're like, hey, you know, you're not supposed to do that. And just, you know, there's. There's so many different little nuances to what you can and can't do on a gamelands compared to other places. You know, there's a lot of grace. Usually you can tell when someone knows that they're supposed to be doing or not. [00:34:00] Speaker B: Right quick. So you guys are trained well enough to. I mean, good. [00:34:03] Speaker A: Right. [00:34:03] Speaker B: Incredible that you understand that. And when somebody's trying to pull a wool over your eyes, you get them a ticket. [00:34:08] Speaker A: Yeah, well, yeah, yeah, you can see that pretty quick. And usually those are the easy ones. Those are the ones like, yeah, yeah, okay, whatever. But most people are. We are very blessed in the state to have most of our hunters really want to do the right thing. [00:34:21] Speaker B: Sure. [00:34:22] Speaker A: And you start out, as in law enforcement, seeing all the bad stuff and thinking everyone's like that. They're not. Most of the people are not. And they really want to row with you. And it's nice to, you know, I'm 56. So you start to see things a little differently because you've had all this experience, you realize there's a lot of good hunters out there, and that's the backbone of the agency, is those hunters that care about doing the right thing. It's pretty neat. [00:34:49] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:34:49] Speaker B: We all make mistakes. We're human. [00:34:51] Speaker A: We do meet. Myself and I have done that myself. But real quick, I wanted us the. The signage there. I just wanted to showcase that our habitat crews. So I. I supervise a foreman, and he has three employees underneath him. For one of that. I have two groups like that. So in Tioga county and part of Potter county, there's one group and then one crew. And then over in McKean and part of MACA. Sorry, McKean and Potter county is another group. So there's like 54,000 acres, and there's eight guys that do all the work. [00:35:27] Speaker B: Wow. [00:35:28] Speaker A: So, like, all these signages that we want to change and move or upkeep that we've had, they're involved with a lot of that work that. That takes a lot of time and effort to upkeep, mow around, you know, replace, you know, people want to go out there and shoot it up, they got to fix it, things like that. [00:35:46] Speaker B: Well, and that's to, like, patients, because they're not all going to be changed overnight. This is a process. Right. And those crews, I mean, we got to give them a shout out, because the work that happens out there couldn't happen without the great employees that we have at this agency without. [00:36:00] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:36:00] Speaker B: And the majority of the employees that are at this agency are here for one reason, because we want to see it better than we found. [00:36:06] Speaker C: They want to be here for wildlife and for the hunters. [00:36:08] Speaker B: We want to leave it better than we found it. Absolutely. And the passion that's in this agency, I can't say enough about. And it, I mean that, that goes all 900 employees that work here. That passion shows daily. And I'm sure you have some great folks that are on the ground up there and our hats off to them and everybody else out there that's out there every day making, making it better for wildlife and for hunting and trapping. [00:36:30] Speaker C: Yeah, without a doubt. And I don't know if we have a little bit of time here too. Just kind of to follow with what Rodney said about the habitat crews up in his group up in McKean, Potter and Tioga. Just looking at, across the state, you know, we stand right around 33 land managers across the state of Pennsylvania and 65 habitat crews across the state. So you're looking at, you know, only 210 or right around 240 when you include land managers and habitat crews together who are responsible, you know, for managing, you know, all the open habitats out on the game lands. You know, all the administrative work that goes into signage and maintaining roads and things of that nature. So like you guys, you know, hit on earlier, just hats off to all those folks out there making it happen every day to keep these game lands in the condition they are and continually improving them over time. [00:37:22] Speaker B: And that's a perspective that you don't, you don't really think about that because it takes that, it takes a, it takes an army to get that stuff done out there. [00:37:29] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:37:30] Speaker B: You know, with 240 folks that are on the ground, I mean when you look at our funding being self funded, agency hunters, dollars that bought the lands and hundreds of dollars continue to provide that management for future generations when we're going. And again, hats off to all those folks out there. And like I said, we have great people that work at this agency for sure. So with the new signage, we also have a lot of new regulations that are happening out there, especially when you look at user groups of the agency that, that don't buy hunting license and don't get a digest. But let's talk about some of the new regs that are out there for the game lens. [00:38:06] Speaker C: Yeah. So. So coming up this fall. So some changes that were finalized back at the April board of Commissioners meeting. Here in Harrisburg, those two changes for this fall center on, so seasonal dates for non motorized vehicles on state game land. So those areas that they are permitted what we call our horse and bicycle routes or designated routes. So there'll be some changes there when it comes to the actual seasonal dates that those uses are permitted for non hunters. So those who aren't engaged in hunting and fur taking, the new kind of blackout dates are part of the seasons that those activities are not allowed on gameland. So again, this is horses and bike riding that now mirrors the seasonal dates for hunter orange when that's required for non hunters out on the game lands. So those dates now are October 1st to January 31st each year and then also April 20th to May 31st each year. So previously, those date windows when those uses of riding horses and bikes weren't permitted were very similar to that. But previously folks were allowed to do that on Sunday. So obviously, obviously that older regulation was in place when Sunday hunting wasn't legalized in Pennsylvania. So those are kind of the two big changes. And then I'll turn it over to Rodney to talk about the hunter orange requirements for non hunters. [00:39:31] Speaker A: Okay. Yeah. So obviously, hunters are required to wear your orange in specific seasons. So it doesn't apply. These regulations don't apply to them because they're guided by the seasons that they're hunting in. But anyone else using the property game lands specifically during those blackout periods, or whatever you want to call them, October 1st to January 31st, and then in spring gobbler, there, they've got to wear either an orange hat, full orange hat, or 250 square inches, head, chest, back, combined, just like a hunter when they're on the game lands during those time periods. And that the big thing there is that just to increase situational awareness, because if you're a non hunter, you don't know what hunters are doing. You're probably not thinking like a hunter. And you may be in compromising places walking a trail or something like that, doing things that could put, you know, could put you in danger if the hunter has no clue that you're there. And that little bit of orange usually is all it takes to alert a hunter and make it real easy for you to see them. So, and that really helps. [00:40:34] Speaker B: And if they don't have it on, you'll be sitting in the pucker brush waiting for them. [00:40:37] Speaker A: Jumping out of the pucker brush, right? [00:40:39] Speaker B: Yep. [00:40:40] Speaker A: Hey, where's your orange? But yeah, at any rate, it's just for safety. That's what it's for. And you know, and it also, you know, helps the public understand that that is our goal, you know, for hunting. It is a safe thing, and we increase that safety by doing this thing, you know, and in some areas, they don't understand, like, why do I have to do this? Because they see it as a park. [00:41:02] Speaker B: Right. [00:41:03] Speaker A: When it's not a park, it's hunting. Hunting grounds. [00:41:06] Speaker B: Absolutely. And. And, you know, safety is always number one. And when you look at accidents that happen out there, I mean, you know, we're in a lot better place with education and, you know, hunter, trapper, education and the whole safety aspect. And, you know, I know we're going to get into down here about treestands and stuff, but one thing, I say this all the time, you know, one of the biggest things that safety or accidents that we see happen, or when people get elevated off the ground. Hunters. And if you're going out this fall and you're getting your tree stand out there, and we'll talk about rules and regs on tree stands later, make sure that you're strapped in from the ground up and stay strapped into that stand. We don't. We want to. We want to see you back in the woods next year. I think that's one of the. Orange is one thing, but, you know, making sure that we're safe out there. We want everybody to be as safe as possible. And that's one of the reasons this reg's in place, too. And, you know, if you see somebody out there that's not following the new. The new regs say something, you know, very nicely, say, hey, it's hunting season, you might want to put orange on. It is a law, and we want to. We want you to be safe out there. [00:42:04] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Most of the public, once they understand that, they're willing to comply. [00:42:07] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:42:08] Speaker A: So basically, if you're walking or riding the bike or riding your horse, you don't have to. If you're fishing. If you're lawfully fishing, you don't have to wear the orange. But, hey, it'd be a good idea anyway. [00:42:18] Speaker B: We'll probably see somebody with a fishing rod with no. Yeah. Where to fish around. Yeah, I'm just fishing. Mud puddle up there. [00:42:24] Speaker C: Yeah. And a big. A big part of those changes to what they were trying to do, because previously those two date windows didn't align, so now they directly mirror one another. Just so it's, you know, a little bit less chance of confusion there when it comes to those dates for both those activities. [00:42:39] Speaker B: Sure. Awesome. Well, let's flip back on to you know, some habitat stuff too. And I know this is Yalls wheelhouse and you have a lot more writing on your papers than I do, but I just have some highlights here and you know, talk about like non forest habitats on game lands and like some of the diversity that we have out there. And, and you know, people like me look at something and they see grass and they don't understand how important grass is or you know, so many people are just fixated on oak trees and like the diversity is important to all wildlife and I think we should hit on that while we're here. [00:43:11] Speaker C: Oh yeah, without a doubt. Because obviously, you know, a lot of times when you think of state game lands or state forests, you're, you're thinking of those, those forested habitats. So the state game land system overall is right around 90% dominated by forests. But like you said Matt, you know, diversity is kind of the slice of life. So you know, all the 480 species that we're out there managing these game lands for, you know, they all need different patch sizes of habitat and also different habitat conditions. So everything ranging, you know, from wetlands, so forested wetlands are, you know, emergent wetlands that are more open and have herbaceous vegetation in them to things like old field reverting habitat as well, even in some cases agricultural habitats out on the game lands. So I don't know if we want to kind of just go down here through some of the approximate acreages of these gamelands out there. So on state gamelands right now there's over 85,000 acres of diverse non forest habitats out there. So just to kind of touch on some of these, to kind of key up Rodney here to talk about gamelands 313, 23,000 acres of wetlands out there in the gamelands system right now. So one of the examples I had here, obviously Middle Creek Wildlife Management Area or State gamelands 46 down in Lancaster and Lebanon counties that has a lot of wetland habitat as well as State gamelands 313 up in the north central region. [00:44:33] Speaker A: Yeah, north central isn't usually known for their wetlands. It's usually big forests but there's a lot of wetlands interspersed and, and it's a pretty neat little valley that was glaciated and it used to run one direction, now it's running another. So it's real flat and that's gamelands 313 known as the muck locally it has to be. The muck used to be a celery farm. They had drained it back at the turn of the century last Century probably. [00:44:58] Speaker B: Did you say celery farm? [00:44:59] Speaker A: Celery farm for New York City? Yeah, they used to rail it up to New York City and it was, they, it was mucky ground, you know, marsh, and whenever they drained it, it started to break down, so it actually subsided. But when that got flooded out a few times, the celery market changed. It started reverting back. And we actually had crops in the 80s on part of it. The agency says acquired it slowly. We own most of it now. And it's really unique wetlands that are actually pretty new. So they're come, we're watching it be reclaimed and we're trying to do it in a natural way because we can't affect the level at all. It just does it itself. But we can affect the species composition. So we have to get in there to manage it. We're doing some invasive species work in there to try to affect what's coming up in there. But great duck habit, especially if you like to do wood ducks. That's a great place to go. [00:45:58] Speaker B: Awesome. And that's, you know, you look at wetlands and the average person like myself never realized how important wetlands is to not just waterfowl, but migratories, but just everything that's in there, you know, down to the tadpoles and everything else that lives there. And it's. Next time you're out there and you see a wetlands, you know, take a, take another three minutes and just look at everything that's happening out there. [00:46:21] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. And they kind of relate to what we had touched on earlier with disturbance. They are disturbance driven ecosystems as well. So Rodney had mentioned kind of being unable to control water levels and fluctuations like that in that wetlands. That is one thing. Out on the gamelands as well, we have over 1,000 waterfowl impoundments, obviously also providing habitat for shorebirds and other water birds as well. But in those areas of gamelands, habitat crews are purposely fluctuating water levels to allow that emergent, you know, flowers, grasses, things of that nature to be able to germinate and then feed ducks during the migratory seasons. So definitely pretty unique habitat type, that's for sure. [00:47:04] Speaker B: So I did hear your accent there because you, where you all live, you spell water W, O, G. Yeah, that's [00:47:09] Speaker C: a little bit of that Philadelphia influence in Birth county. Yeah, Yep, yep. Water, yep, that's for sure. [00:47:15] Speaker B: Let's talk about some of the other habitats that are out there that you. [00:47:18] Speaker C: So we just kind of want to highlight, you know, some kind of, you know, keystone game lands that have a Lot of this habit, these different habitat types on them. So looking at old field reverting habitats, so probably the easiest way to explain that would be, you know, the farmer's field in your backyard. If that was let to revert for a period of five to 10 years, you're going to get a mixture of, [00:47:40] Speaker B: you know, some not putting any fertilizer and weed killer on it. [00:47:42] Speaker C: Yes. [00:47:43] Speaker B: Let it natural. [00:47:44] Speaker C: Yes. So you get a mixture of what you would term annual weeds, things of that nature, as well as some perennial plants, like things like black eyed Susans and some different wildflower species, as well as what we call woody plants. So those shrubs and some limited tree cover. So that covers over 22,000 acres under management on the gameland system. Old field reverting habitat types. So a lot of times those field complexes are going to be some of the core areas that are stocked with ringneck pheasants each fall and provide that pheasant hunting opportunity. So a couple of gamelands to highlight. There would be gamelands 280 in the southeast region over in Berks county where I'm from, or also known as Blue Marsh, as well as gamelands 108 down in the southwest region, if I can [00:48:34] Speaker A: touch on that specific habitat type. Historically, the Game Commission leaned into agriculture real heavily because that's what the hunters like to see, especially small game interaction and stuff like that. And when we got real lean and had no money, we couldn't farm it nearly as much. We reduced how many food and cover crew were out there. It was really easy to go into this habitat because it's basically just leave it alone and minimal, you know, maintenance on it. And we found out it was really awesome habitat. A lot of the hunters really didn't like it because it's like, where's my food plot? It used to be a food plot. And of course the pendulums always switch back and forth. Hey, if, if it was good, let's make more. And we did. And some of it was out of necessity because we didn't have the money to do other things. And now we're, we're starting to see that pendulum switch back a little bit, maybe resetting these fields. You know, they've been there for 20 years. They're no longer an old field habitat. They're starting to revert into forest. We need to start to go back into effect and reset. So we're starting to do we have the money and the manpower to do that now. And you're gonna start to see a lot more of the cool season Forage, which we're gonna hit on next. But that old field is really important to at least have a good portion of it in there because it's awesome habitat. [00:49:52] Speaker B: I know, like for turkeys, I mean, it like when they have that brooding, you know, from hatch to. That's the most important connectivity they need when they're brooding. And it's such an important part of a turkey's life. When you, when you open those old fields up where they can get those poults in and stay away from avian predators and things like that, I mean, you don't, you don't think about that stuff a lot, but that, that whole life cycle of any species needs that diversity in there. For sure, I see shrublands on the list. I don't even know what a shrubland is. So you're gonna have to like go, yeah, yeah. So deep on that one. [00:50:24] Speaker C: Yeah. Also out on the game lands, as far as what we call open habitats, as those areas that aren't dominated by trees. Like I said before, there is over 20,000 acres of shrublands. So most commonly, just kind of for a frame of reference, you're going to find these along field edges as well as roadway edges where they're being intentionally maintained. So those areas that are dominated by shrubs, you know, in a lot of cases they could be a mixture of both native and non native shrubs. So some of those targeted treatments that the land managers, the habitat crews are going to be scheduling out there may be to go in and move or, excuse me, remove autumn olive or some type of non native shrub and encourage a native shrub like American hazelnut or scrub oak and things of that nature. So those areas are going to be dominated by shrubs. Also Barrens is another habitat type that's shrub dominated primarily by scrub oak and also dwarf chinkapin oaks. So you're going to find those on, on ridge tops, you know, both in the north, central and northeast regions most commonly, but also, you know, relatively close to here in Dolphin county up on gamelands210. So those are going to be areas that are mostly treeless besides, you know, occasional scattered, you know, chestnoke or pitch pine, things of that nature. And then you kind of have that continuous shrub layer that's in all different stages of succession. You know, kind of having some of that structural diversity out there in the landscape stuff. [00:51:50] Speaker B: The hard, it's hard to get through. [00:51:51] Speaker C: Definitely it's the stuff that you're going to associate with bear drives or things of that nature. It's, it's kind of some of that brush that Rodney was referencing earlier, pocket brush. But then I guess since Rodney kind of keyed us up and I know he's definitely. Him and his crews are some of the best at implementing this management, kind of blending that. What we would call, for lack of a better term, old, older management. [00:52:15] Speaker B: Is that because we're old? Curtis, you making fun of. [00:52:17] Speaker C: No, I'm getting there, too. I'm plugged in on 40 rapidly. But just this kind of blending the old old with the news as far as, you know, some of that, you know, old field management with. With cool season forages, and also some of those targeted row crops as well, kind of using them as a reset to tools. So I don't know if you want to talk about. I know there's a lot of that up on game 37. [00:52:38] Speaker A: Right. So, like, we have a comprehensive management plan. And some of the openings, we have different buckets we put things in so we can thoughtfully manage through those. And, you know, one of those is the old field, but part of the old field. To reset it, we can go back into the other bucket, which is cool season forage, which could be your clovers and legumes and things like that, which kind of amend soils. You know, wildlife love those. A lot of bugging opportunity for, you know, the woodcock and. Or, excuse me, not woodcock, but grouse and turkeys. And so we can get in there and reset with those. So also we throw in there the next category, which is we could even put some row crop in there, which a lot of, you know, that's what a lot of hunters think about with a food plot is, hey, you gotta plant a bunch of corn out there. [00:53:31] Speaker B: Just because that's what you say on television. [00:53:32] Speaker A: Right? [00:53:32] Speaker B: I mean, that's what it is. Yeah, yeah. [00:53:34] Speaker A: And that's okay. But, you know, we've gone to something even like buckwheat and pumpkins, where you put a bunch of buckwheat out there. You get the benefits of that. We throw some pumpkin seeds in there. One of. Sean Effingham is the guy that came up with this. He's one of my. He's my crew foreman in Potter County. But. And these pumpkins will grow up in. And then in the wintertime, the deer. And they're eating the pumpkins, you know, so. And it's not baiting. It's. It's, you know, like some people. Yeah, it's agriculture. So it's pretty cool to try some of those different things that you can rotate through instead of just having the Same thing there every year. [00:54:10] Speaker B: And it helps your soil. [00:54:11] Speaker A: I mean, it does, yeah. Keeping it rotated. [00:54:13] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. [00:54:17] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. And I guess kind of to finish up as far as this broad habitat overview, what's out there on the game land, you know, also 5,000 acres of fields like Rodney kind of touched on, it's kind of on a rotational basis. It could be kind of a what we would call a old field reset treatment out there. So for a period of one to three years, you know, something kind of on a smaller scale like corn or sunflowers could be planted to kind of reset that old field area and kind of get rid of some of those, you know, non native invasives and things of that nature and then kind of let it progress through succession again for another five to 10 years. So those cover about 5,000 acres roughly on an annual basis out there on the game lands. Kind of the core of that would be our managed dove fields, the habitat crews are planning out in the game lands. Most of those managed dove fields are located in the southern half of the state in the southern regions, but there are some up in the north, central, northwest and northeast as well. So manage dove fields, you know, any year. They range from roughly 1000 to 1500 acres out there on the landscape. [00:55:24] Speaker B: Right. You mentioned something earlier. I think we should hit on the comprehensive management plan that every game lands out there has and how important that is to the management of the game lands. And you know, it isn't. You just go out there and you wing it. I mean, there is a definite science behind every game lands and the prescription that whether it's fire, just everything that goes on out there. If you want to just talk about how we manage to that plan. [00:55:47] Speaker C: Yeah, I can, I can hit on that from a, from a Harrisburg level to kind of start us off. So each gamelands does have a habitat management plan or a comprehensive management plan as we call it internally here at pgc. So that is a team of different folks from different backgrounds and different jobs. So it includes land manager, forester, biologist, habitat crews, as well as our GIS folks who are kind of making everything in the digital sense come to life as far as mapping. And those plans are developed as a team. So kind of coming up with the decisions about what each gamelands is going to be managed for. You know, like gamelands 330 in Clarion County, Grassland songbirds might be the focus. Gamelands 37 in Tiohee county, you know, ruffed grouse might be one of the focal species. And then kind of figuring out that Roadmap and sketching out your next 10 years. So we plan on 10 year planning horizons and it's kind of that recipe that is going to improve those habitats over time for the species that are being focused on. So I don't know if you want to touch on it from the, from your perspective, Rodney. [00:56:51] Speaker A: Well, historically we didn't have them when I started with the agency. And so it's a relatively new process when I say that they're 10 year plans. And 10 years seems like a long time, but it comes around really quickly. But the first iterations we had were basically collecting data, understanding the history of what was there, how the game lands came about, and then trying to mindfully put together a management plan on what roadmap. And we're getting into the second third iterations of those now. And the new crop of young guys that are out there that are coming into that are really collaborative. Our younger generation just is really good at working as a team. And it's pretty neat to see because the foresters and biologists and the land managers sit down in a room and talk about a game lands and the cool plot over here and the cool plot over there and how can we all make it together, work together for this species and that. And we come together with a plan and try to write that out and give us enough leeway in case something comes off the rail. We can switch to plan B and [00:57:58] Speaker B: plan C. You always need an audible. [00:57:59] Speaker A: You do, you do. And so it's kind of a neat process. And that way if I'm gone tomorrow, the next guy can pick that plan up and read through and really have a good idea what to do. You know, it's a pretty neat plan. So the agency has done a really good job and it is the most painful process in the world on some levels, in some ways sometimes it's fun, enjoyable to dig into the nuts and bolts, but it's hard work to get that done and out in a timely fashion. [00:58:28] Speaker B: You hit on something earlier. I'm just going to kind of give a shout out to the GIS folks. The GIS folks are. It's a, you know, the whole team that works across the state and just, I don't know exactly when it's going to be ready, but they have a whole new mapping center for the public and it's going to include a lot of the habitat work that's going on. It's going to be every game lands and it's going to be just an awesome tool for folks that want to enjoy Our game lands. And, you know, it should be out here in the next couple months, you know, preluding to hunting season, where you can get online, you can come to, you know, headquarters or one of the regional offices and you can map out new places even, not even your old favorite. But, you know, with. With all the game lands that we have, state line to state line, there's always something else that you can check out within driving distance. I mean, for sure, but that mapping system that the GIS folks are putting together, we got a little sneak preview a week ago and it's pretty incredible. [00:59:18] Speaker C: Yeah, and you bring up a really good point there, Matt. That was something I failed to mention earlier. Like if you have questions, some of those different road classes and opening dates and things of that nature that we were running through, that mapping center is the ultimate resource to be able to go look at it. You know, game lands you're looking to head out to for hunting. And you can see, you know, what seasonal roads are available when they open, when they close. And with what the GIS divisions you know, cooking up here in the near future, it's going to be even easier for you to use. So definitely check that out as you [00:59:48] Speaker B: get time and you'll be able to see a lot of that habitat work that's going on on the ground. And I mean, in today's digital age of E scouting and things like that, I mean, some of the information that they're able to bring to our constituents out there is pretty incredible. Hats off to that whole gang out there. They do an incredible job. Let's talk about the tools that are used out there to create habitat and what you guys work with every day of your life and some of the things, you know, whether it's high level or low level, that, that are happening today as we sit in here and record this. [01:00:19] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. So definitely, you know, kind of, you know, the Game Commission's approach today, you know, utilizing a diversity of tools can definitely lead to a lot of diversity of habitat types out there on the game lands, as well as a diversity of structures. So like Rodney had kind of touched on earlier, you know, different life stages of. Even like a wild turkey, they're going to need slightly different habitat at each of those stages. So using a, you know, diverse suite of tools to be able to have as many habitat types and structures, you know, across a gamelands compartment of, you know, several hundred acres or maybe in potentially a thousand acres is very, very important. So definitely just looking at some of the, what we call habitat treatment types that the crews and, you know, land managers are using on a regular basis would include things like, you know, tree cutting, you know, along field edges and roadway edges as well, to kind of connect some of those pockets of, you know, younger forest or early successional habitat that the foresters are making out there in the landscape. You know, mechanical treatments like disking and mowings, things of that nature, you know, as well as, you know, target of herbicide treatments and, you know, using things like that out there on the landscape. [01:01:31] Speaker B: We're using disking. I didn't mean to cut you up, but you're even using disking like in the woods. Yeah, I see that happening a lot. And explain that, because it's. It's something that's pretty new, I think. I mean, I could be wrong, but. [01:01:43] Speaker C: Yeah, it's something. I know Rodney's region had tried that, you know, starting, you know, five to 10 years ago. So one of the things that the foresters and land managers are trying to do there is, you know, stimulate some of that native herbaceous seed banks, so those wildflowers and grasses, things of that nature. Because a lot of our forests, especially when it comes to, you know, ridge tops in the north central region, they have a really, really thick layer of what we call aircious shrubs. So those are your mountain laurels and your, you know, blueberries, huckleberries, things of that. [01:02:11] Speaker B: What do you call them again? [01:02:12] Speaker C: Mountain laurels? [01:02:12] Speaker A: No. [01:02:13] Speaker B: What was the technical term, Erica? [01:02:15] Speaker A: Shrubs. [01:02:15] Speaker B: That's a word. I'll never use those types of shrubs [01:02:19] Speaker C: to be able to break up that route map. Because a lot of cases, you might go in and do a large prescribed fire or some type of, you know, cutting or mowing treatment, and a lot of time those shrubs are going to form, you know, a monoculture. So what those folks are trying to do is just kind of break up that, you know, single layer of huckleberry or whatever it is and get some of that diversity as far as species and structures and things of that nature. [01:02:41] Speaker B: And getting through leaf matter that's thick, probably, I would assume, and just creating disturbance. [01:02:45] Speaker A: Yes. [01:02:45] Speaker C: Yep. [01:02:46] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Some of those projects have yielded really well. [01:02:50] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:02:51] Speaker A: Where you wouldn't have gotten anything come up. But that root mat that literally was a foot thick, there's no way a seed would have grow up through that. But you break it up with a. One of those heavy forestry discs with a dozer, and it's amazing what pops up in there. [01:03:04] Speaker B: It's amazing when you just, you know, for lack of a better example, when you see One acorn that finally gets to soil and then throws a root from a white oak. How long it takes for that tree to get just above the leaves is like. That blew my mind when somebody told me that. It's like, you know, sometimes 10 years. [01:03:22] Speaker C: Oh, yeah. [01:03:22] Speaker B: Until it gets up there. And, you know, 10 years is a long time. And it. The stem is smaller than your little finger. You know, it's crazy how long it takes for something. And that's where that disturbance can tremendously help. [01:03:34] Speaker C: Definitely. Yep. [01:03:34] Speaker B: Sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off. I just wanted to hit on. [01:03:36] Speaker C: No, that's fine. I don't even really remember what I was talking about. That seems to happen. [01:03:42] Speaker B: We were talking about just some of the tools. [01:03:43] Speaker C: Oh, yeah, Yeah. I think I covered most of them there, obviously, you know, you know, planning treatments that could range from anything from, you know, planting shrubs to planning, you know, grassland and native wildflower mixes, you know, as well as, you know, clovers out there in the game lands, there's, you know, thousands of acres that are. That are occurring out on the gamelands each year. So, yeah, definitely. It's a diverse suite of tools. And that's one of the cool things. You know, at this point in the Game Commission's history, almost any treatment is available if you can justify it and figure out a good way to implement it out there in the landscape. [01:04:18] Speaker A: The interesting thing about the treatments is there's. There's no. How should I say it? There's always a consequence to whatever you do out there, and it can be tremendously positive. But there's always a downside somewhere, so you're always trading something off, and there's always a cause and effect. That's kind of what I was trying to shoot for. And, you know, one example was we decided to put some fire on some Army Corps property that we have up Tioga Hammond area. It's this bottom land that used to be farmland was taken for the lake, and this was just a flood area and lots of invasive invasives. We sprayed the invasives, we put some fire in there, and we got a whole new kind of invasive. So, you know, in places like that, sometimes the things that. We got a lot of positive things, too. We got regeneration of a lot of things for animals to eat. A lot of the forbs and things came back, which was good. But there's something else that now we have to work on. So whatever you're doing, you're always changing your calculus based on what the response is, whether it be disking or spraying or you know, whatever the treatment is, [01:05:26] Speaker B: it's amazing what lays in those seed banks out there. When you really think about it. Didn't even know what an invasive was at one point. And now when you look at the ground and you go, where did this come from? And it's something we're always going to battle, but y' all are leading the charge for sure. And, you know, that's one thing. I always encourage folks that when they get out there, anywhere in the woods, but on our gameland system, yeah, we all want to pull the trigger and be lucky and be successful, but when you can take it in for five minutes. I got to one of my first trips and people got tired of me even talking about it. But I went to Latham's Acre with John Zemian and it was just an eye opening experience to see what actually was here 50 years ago at that time and, you know, when there was no deer on the landscape and just everything that grew wild and, and when you really take it in and just take a little section and look at what's happening out there, it's pretty amazing. And it increases that experience, that overall experience tenfold, in my opinion. [01:06:25] Speaker C: Without a doubt. [01:06:27] Speaker B: So let's talk about some rules and regs because we get these questions quite a bit on game lands and first being trail cameras and you know, obviously talk about the tree stands, what's allowed, what's not allowed, and kind of the rules on stands and. And just like anybody else, we hear this all the time and we see it with our own eyes. Like, you go out there right now and there's still stands out there and just, you know, let's talk about how we try to enforce those rules and regs out there. [01:06:53] Speaker A: Tree stands are the bane of the habitat crews because they're the ones that always have to clean up after everybody, especially in the big woods where people are only there seasonally. You know, a lot of stuff gets left out because, you know, they put a huge effort in, put a tree stand out and they don't want to go back and do all that in reverse and, you know, be responsible, especially if they can get away with no one being in there for years, you know, decades at a time. And a lot of those stands end up doing damage to trees. They become unsalable, they become, you know, degrade that tree in some pretty bad ways. Screw in steps are a big one. Guys will do everything right and then they'll take their stuff, screw in step and, you know, screwed in. Well, technically you could have bought that tree by the law, you could be charged with cost of that tree. That would be an extreme case. But, you know, those types of things are difficult to wade through. So whenever it comes to tree stands, if you're going to leave it overnight, you got to put your CID number on it or your name and address, one of those two. If it's going to stay overnight. And you can't put it up until two weeks before deer season. So your wildlife management unit, whenever deer season starts to come in, you have two weeks before, and you can leave it up all season until two weeks after. Just keep in mind, you know, anyone can use that tree stand. So it's not, you know, if you put it out there, you know, someone else could be in it when you come there. But also, if it's doing damage to that tree and you get in it, you're liable for using that stand. That's doing damage to that tree. And that's just to help keep people from stopping the damaged trees. That's the whole point of that. Those nuisance regulations so that we don't have our trees all banged up and chopped up. And one of the other big things that I do see out there is they'll cut shooting lanes, they'll cut branches. You can't do damage to anything. You can't be cutting things out. You know, if it's dead. It's one thing if you break a few dead branches, but to be cutting anything, you can't do that. You'll see guys trying to do that. [01:09:00] Speaker B: Well, the other thing about leaving stands out there, too, it's a safety risk. You know, it is. [01:09:03] Speaker A: You don't, you know, your cables, they break down. [01:09:05] Speaker B: Yeah. And we want to keep you safe. And, you know, the more. The more that we can, you know, enforce that or get that information out there that you have to bring those stands out after the season. I think it's the better it is. [01:09:16] Speaker A: My guys have to get up in those stands to get them down a lot of times. And it's a hazard. You know, if they're there for a couple years, those things break down. So. Yeah, good point there. [01:09:25] Speaker B: Absolutely. What about trail cameras? That's the new rage we're in. I mean, there's not really regulations out there about trail cameras. Am I. Am I right or wrong on that one? [01:09:35] Speaker A: There. There isn't. There's nothing prohibiting them right now. You know, from a. My game warden mind is like, it's trash. You know, anything you leave out there is. But it's. It's not technically trash, but it's, it's something that doesn't have a regulation attached to it now, but they are everywhere. And yeah, I think some of the [01:09:57] Speaker C: biggest things to keep in mind there would be similar to the tree stands like Rodney Brooke brought up. Like, I know sometimes, you know, guys might be interested like in a, a solar panel or something like that to power that. And they may be used to, you know, screwing those into the tree on their private land or wherever they're hunting on private land. So that's one thing to keep in mind. Obviously those, those plastic coated steel cables or master locks are kind of the recommended way to put those on the tree. Just some kind of, you know, best management practices to keep in mind there. [01:10:26] Speaker B: Yeah, you don't think about that a lot, but the trees, especially small trees, they're growing all the time. It doesn't take long to damage them for sure. And I never even thought about clearing shooting lanes and stuff like that being a legal issue. And you know, when you're setting your stand, just take that into mind before you set it in the middle of a place you can't see anywhere for sure. [01:10:44] Speaker A: We're trying to grow those trees. Don't cut them down. [01:10:46] Speaker B: Right. There you go. Perfect. Well, guys, if you have some other stuff you want to talk about, that's great, but I just want to say thank you from everybody here at the agency for doing what you do every day and for your service to the agency. And again, you know, a lot of the behind the scenes stuff we talked about today, but if there's anything else you want to talk about, the floor is yours. [01:11:08] Speaker C: Yeah, I think one other thing, I'll put my foot in my mouth here, but just to kind of sum it up, one thing we didn't touch on kind of what makes us and you know, our sister agency over at DCNR different. One of the great things is how state game lands are, you know, fairly evenly distributed across the state of Pennsylvania, obviously D.C. and our state forests are, you know, really, really thick and you know, a lot of acreage up in Rodney's neck of the woods in the North Central. But one of the cool things, you know, even in the southeast region where 60% of PA's residents live, there's still 145,000 acres of game lands available to get out there and get after it and hunting and, you know, scout here ahead of the season. So definitely, you know, keep that resource in mind and what's available here. [01:11:50] Speaker B: And there's places that haven't seen a [01:11:52] Speaker C: person in a long Time, Without a doubt. [01:11:53] Speaker B: I mean, there's some wild areas around, you know, close to. Close to population. [01:11:57] Speaker C: Definitely. [01:11:57] Speaker A: Yeah. Yep, yep. [01:11:59] Speaker B: I just. [01:11:59] Speaker A: I just can't say enough. The food and cover crew, the habitat, that's what we used to call them. Food that dates me. They're called habitat workers now. They are the backbone of the agency of habitat work. Just tremendous. They carry all of our good ideas that we have from the upper echelons that want to push down and do something, they're the ones doing it. Unless you get a contractor or a forester with a logging company company, they're the ones that are out there doing the work for the agency. And without them, we wouldn't be able to do any of the stuff we just talked about today. [01:12:36] Speaker B: Right. I encourage folks, if they run into our habitat crews out there, give them a thanks. Thank them. And from us. Thank you. Because, I mean, like, like this. When you look at this agency and how diverse we are in every, from law enforcement to habitat to wildlife management, I mean, I can go on and on. Everybody has their specialty and their focus. And, you know, even in the hiring process, that's what we look for. The people that have that desire to. To make it better and we all work as one team. I mean, and you said it earlier, there was mistakes that get made out there, but overarching. All in all. When you work for something that's better and bigger than we are, it's pretty awesome. [01:13:14] Speaker C: Without a doubt. [01:13:15] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:13:15] Speaker A: Yeah. Most of them are hunters too, so they. They're trying to. They're always saying, Hey, 100. Like this, this, this. Let's try to do that. So they really bring that perspective from a grassroots level. Pretty cool. [01:13:27] Speaker B: When you look at the agency from. From side to side, however you want to look at it, we hear so many times that, you know, they don't even know what they're doing. They're not hunters. I haven't met too many people here that don't love to hunt. [01:13:37] Speaker C: Most folks are. [01:13:38] Speaker B: Yeah, right. Absolutely. Proud to wear my camouflage in New York City. If I. Gentlemen, thank you so much for being here. Thank you for what you do every day. And best of luck to you out there this fall. [01:13:49] Speaker C: Yep. [01:13:49] Speaker A: Thank you. [01:13:50] Speaker C: Likewise. Thank you.